Parents charged in school shooting

[FRANKIE]

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[Phazer]

Ummm...they could be potentially guilty of not securing firearms from acquisition by prohibited persons (depending on Michigan laws). But, charging with manslaughter would appear to be prosecutorial overreach.

Any chance that the government wants to simply continue to demonize firearms ownership and make such ownership appear onerous? Nah, can't be.

 

[fresch]

He is too young for a gun, but will be charged as an adult.
Which is it, adult or child?

I know,
Parents need to be held to account, the kid is a murderer and should be put down as such.

 

[Blimey]

Ummm...they could be potentially guilty of not securing firearms from acquisition by prohibited persons (depending on Michigan laws). But, charging with manslaughter would appear to be prosecutorial overreach.

Any chance that the government wants to simply continue to demonize firearms ownership and make such ownership appear onerous? Nah, can't be.

I guess it depends what they knew and when.

This will all be too little too late of course. I wonder if any precedent can truly be set. If you've got a psychopathic kid (in this case I have no clue what warning signs there were) you need to be careful with what they can do.

 

[Robin]

Disgusting overreach. Just fucking disgusting.
Robin

 

[holdover]

I thought so at first too, but I think theres more to the story yet.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

As of right now the parents are missing .

Rewards offered for parents of Michigan school shooting suspect

The Crumbleys left the night after the shooting "for their own safety" but are returning for arraignment, their lawyers said Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Catskillkid]

Some additional timelines of what happened leading up to the shooting: Key moments surrounding Michigan high school shootings

Friday, Nov. 26: James Crumbley buys a 9mm Sig Sauer from Acme Shooting Goods in Oxford, according to Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald. His 15-year-old son Ethan later posts a photo on Instagram of himself holding the semi-automatic handgun, writing: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm. Any questions I will answer." He includes an emoji of a smiling face with heart eyes.

Saturday, Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan's mother, writes on social media that it is a “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present,” the prosecutor says.

Monday, Nov. 29: A teacher sees Ethan, a sophomore at Oxford High, searching online for ammunition with his cellphone during class and reports it to school officials, McDonald says. School personnel call his mother, leave a voicemail and email her. She does not respond. While exchanging text messages with her son, she writes: “Lol. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”

That night, Ethan Crumbley records a video in which he discusses killing students, according to sheriff’s Lt. Tim Willis.

Tuesday, Nov. 30: A teacher finds a note on Ethan's desk that alarms her enough to take a photo, the prosecutor says. It includes a drawing of a handgun and the words: “The thoughts won't stop. Help me.” Also depicted is a bullet with the words “blood everywhere” above a person who appears to have been shot twice and is bleeding. A laughing emoji is drawn below the figure. The note also says “my life is useless” and "the world is dead.”

The parents are immediately summoned to the school for a meeting that occurred around 10 a.m. A school counselor removes Ethan from the classroom and takes him to the office with his backpack. The counselor obtains the drawing, but Ethan has already scratched out portions. The parents are shown the note and advised that they are required to get him counseling within 48 hours. They resist the idea of Ethan immediately leaving school and depart without him, McDonald says. He returns to the classroom.

About 12:51 p.m., Ethan emerges from a bathroom with the gun his father bought four days before. He fires at students in the hallway, killing four and wounding six students and one teacher. Deputies capture him within minutes of the shooting. When news of an active shooter becomes public, Jennifer Crumbley texts her son at 1:22 p.m.: “Ethan don't do it.” Fifteen minutes later, at 1:37 p.m., James Crumbley calls 911 to report that a gun was missing from his house and he believes his son may be the shooter. The gun had been kept unlocked in a drawer in the parents' bedroom, McDonald says.

Wednesday, Dec. 1: Ethan is charged as an adult with murder and terrorism.

Friday, Dec. 3: James and Jennifer Crumbley are charged with involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Catskillkid]

Obviously not all the details are known, but it seems to me at least a few days prior to the shooting the parents had an inkling that something wasn't right yet they failed to secure the gun. Furthermore, when the school contacted them (on the day of the shooting no less) that there was an issue they refused to take the kid home (why the school didn't force this issue or get a resource officer to remove him from the premises are unclear to me at least and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some negligence on the part of the school here too).

 

[libertysnake]

I guess it depends what they knew and when.

This will all be too little too late of course. I wonder if any precedent can truly be set. If you've got a psychopathic kid (in this case I have no clue what warning signs there were) you need to be careful with what they can do.

I always lock my firearms up, period. Unless someone is somehow co-registered, they're locked up. The keys are then locked in a combo vault. I only know the combo to the combo vault that has my nightstand pistol in it.

Everything within reach, but secure.

Even my ammo, even though the crates are fairly thick plastic and separated physically form the guns in the same room, I throw locks on them as good measure.

 

[ManrisFrack]

Obviously not all the details are known, but it seems to me at least a few days prior to the shooting the parents had an inkling that something wasn't right yet they failed to secure the gun. Furthermore, when the school contacted them (on the day of the shooting no less) that there was an issue they refused to take the kid home (why the school didn't force this issue or get a resource officer to remove him from the premises are unclear to me at least and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some negligence on the part of the school here too).

Sorry but NOTHING in the timeline is concerning until the picture incident THAT MORNING.

They should have checked the gun ASAP after that meeting but parents can be amazingly blind to their children's flaws.

The terror charges and the manslaughter charges are purely political.

 

[Justincase]

Parents AND the school are culpable. They all f’ed up and are at least partially responsible

 

[Catskillkid]

Sorry but NOTHING in the timeline is concerning until the picture incident THAT MORNING.

They should have checked the gun ASAP after that meeting but parents can be amazingly blind to their children's flaws.

The terror charges and the manslaughter charges are purely political.

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines a little bit but the moment news of a school shooting were alerted the mom texts the son saying "Don't do it."

I have a really hard time believing they did not have an idea that something was wrong until the day the school called them about the picture he drew.

 

[meketrefe]

He is too young for a gun, but will be charged as an adult.
Which is it, adult or child?

I know,
Parents need to be held to account, the kid is a murderer and should be put down as such.

 

[Justincase]

He is too young for a gun, but will be charged as an adult.
Which is it, adult or child?

I know,
Parents need to be held to account, the kid is a murderer and should be put down as such.

They should change it to “charged as old enough to know better “

 

[spat]

So, if a gun gets stolen from a police cruiser and used in a crime do we charge the cop ?

What about ones that disappear from a property room ?

 

[ManrisFrack]

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines a little bit but the moment news of a school shooting were alerted the mom texts the son saying "Don't do it."

I have a really hard time believing they did not have an idea that something was wrong until the day the school called them about the picture he drew.

The mother had just seen her kid make some very disturbing drawings hours beforehand. It's more than logical for her to assume (upon hearing of a shooter at his school) that he was the shooter just based on the drawings.

No decent parent wants to believe their kid is a murdering psychopath. The path from 'he's a little odd' to 'he needs help' to 'he's gonna shoot up a school' is a very difficult one to go down when judging someone you know. Shit, it's why, after every one of these tragedies, people see signs in retrospect that they didn't act on at the time. Out of everyone, parents will walk down that path the slowest because it will be most painful to them.

Honestly, I hope you're right. I hope they're shitty people that knew this would probably happen and didn't care. I hope they aren't just dumb or blind or slow to acknowledge reality, because they're fucked now. As evidenced here, most people are going to write them off before they even get arraigned. No one is going to help them and they're going to get crushed by the media, the politicians and the mob - no matter what the real story is.



I saw Sheriff Bouchard on TV today. He was complaining that no one had involved law enforcement and implied that the shooting probably wouldn't have happened if they had. By way of proof, he stated that his office had acted on a similar situation recently. The solution? Seize the guns in the home. If we keep allowing the extension of culpability beyond the homicidal maniacs, we're gonna end up with .gov taking our guns because some lefty, activist teacher got "scared" by finger guns. Sure, it'll technically be an unlawful seizure but what the hell are average people gonna do about it? The politicians lose nothing if you happen to win a suit for deprivation of rights but it might cost them a lucrative career if they get caught on TV looking like the could have DONE SOMETHING.

This perverse incentive structure that is our current politics is EXTREMELY caustic to Liberty. Don't give the state the benefit of the doubt by reading between the lines or even believing what they say behind their fancy podiums. The state doesn't deserve it and it's how you get prosecution of people like Rittenhouse. Make the cock sucking politicians prove it beyond a reasonable doubt before you stamp someone guilty.

 

[holdover]

James and Jennifer Crumbley caught, arrested after vehicle is found in Detroit​

James and Jennifer Crumbley caught, arrested after vehicle is found in Detroit

Detroit police, other officers swarmed near east side in search for James, Jennifer Crumbley, parents of Oxford High School shooting suspect.

www.freep.com

 

[fresch]

This only happened, and I can't think of it ever happening, when I was young, by the true insane. Of course we had the belt, back of the hand, Fly back paddle, shoe, something from the kitchen drawer to keep you this side of the straight n narrow. One mother, one father, religion, schools with shooting ranges, shop class, corporal punishment at school.
Now, two moms, two dads, no responsibilities, no religion, no shop, no punishment, only feelings, "Walk It Off!", you little wussy.

 

[Blimey]

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines a little bit but the moment news of a school shooting were alerted the mom texts the son saying "Don't do it."

I have a really hard time believing they did not have an idea that something was wrong until the day the school called them about the picture he drew.

I agree with @ManrisFrack that with the timeline mentioned nothing alarming until the note. Googling ammo prices isn’t alarming, for example.

And yes I’m sure that there is more going on here as well. Those parents knew this kid had some major issues and it sounds like they were negligent.

 

[Darth]

This only happened, and I can't think of it ever happening, when I was young, by the true insane. Of course we had the belt, back of the hand, Fly back paddle, shoe, something from the kitchen drawer to keep you this side of the straight n narrow. One mother, one father, religion, schools with shooting ranges, shop class, corporal punishment at school.
Now, two moms, two dads, no responsibilities, no religion, no shop, no punishment, only feelings, "Walk It Off!", you little wussy.

That's a poor argument considering we are becoming a less violent society as a whole.

 

[MothMan]

What about the other parent in the room?? The school!! The school acts as “in loco parentis”. Why didn’t it act to preserve safety of all of the other children.

Teaching - In Loco Parentis, Education, Pedagogy | Britannica

Teaching - In Loco Parentis, Education, Pedagogy: When minor children are entrusted by parents to a school, the parents delegate to the school certain responsibilities for their children, and the school has certain liabilities. In effect, the school and the teachers take some of the...

www.britannica.com

Why didn’t the school suspend and remove him from building if threat determined to be so great?

Was there a school resource officer involved?

I think more than the parents will be ducking their head.

 

[fresch]

That's a poor argument considering we are becoming a less violent society as a whole.

Haha, less violent.
You so funny.

 

[Darth]

Haha, less violent.
You so funny.

It's not really about humor so much as it is reality.

It's an objective observation.

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[Deplorable Me]

The issue of accessibility is a case by case basis. It's also an issue of reasonable precautions and care due to circumstances on hand. I don't agree with vague blanket broad brushed laws. Applying the one on one concept the parents were negligent in knowing this child had problems and failed to reasonably restrict access to dangerous items or things that could cause harm. It's scary that the parents did not seek help but with today's failure of government, medical, social resources were they hesitant to seek help? A clusterfuck of epic proportions. Look at the mental health provisions of NYs unSafeAct. People fear getting even minor help because of the backlash that they might endure. Throw in the corporate medical community and their constant rush to push drugs I mean profits before actual people.

 

[fresch]

It's not really about humor so much as it is reality.

It's an objective observation.

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The link from goofball 2003?
This morning news, California follow home gun point robbery.
Any day groups fighting each other, running gun fights, smash n grab robbery, Chicago, blm, democrats, etc..

 

[cgrutt]

Not an attorney but seems to me prosecutor will have a very difficult time proving parents are guilty of involuntary manslaughter under Michigan law. For one neither parent was "the actor" that actually caused the death of any of the victims. So what act did they commit and was it both parents or just one? Slippery slope for sure but not surprising...

“Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of another without malice and unintentionally, but in doing some unlawful act not amounting to a felony nor naturally tending to cause death or great bodily harm, or in negligently doing some act lawful in itself, or by the negligent omission to perform a legal duty.” People v Ryczek, 224 Mich 106, 110; 194 NW 609 (1923). This is distinct from voluntary manslaughter which parallels the crime of murder where the defendant must be found to have an intent to kill or an intent to do serious bodily harm to the deceased, but malice was negated under the circumstances by provocation and the homicide was committed in the heat of passion. People v Townes, 391 Mich 578, 589; 218 NW2d 136 (1974).

A person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter if the prosecutor can prove all of the following elements beyond a reasonable doubt (Michigan Criminal Jury Instruction 16.10):

First, that the individual caused the death of the victim, that is, that the victim died as a result of the individual’s act.
Second, in doing the act that caused the victim’s death, the individual acted in a grossly negligent manner OR in doing the act that caused the victim’s death, the individual intended to injure the victim. For example, an individual who commits assault and battery with the intent to inflict injury but instead causes an unintended death, then this amounts to, at least, involuntary manslaughter. People v Datema, 448 Mich 585; 533 NW2d 272 (1995).
Third, that the individual caused the death without lawful excuse or justification.

 

[livingston]

Parents of MI shooter Ethan Crumbley break down in court

James and Jennifer Crumbley broke down in tears Saturday morning as they each pled not guilty to all four charges of involuntary manslaughter. Bail was set for each parent at $500,000.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Parents of Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley are seen in their mugshots after being arrested on manslaughter charges: Cops found the couple hiding in basement of a Detroit art studio less than a mile from the Canadian border​

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  Saturday, Dec 4th 2021 7AM 28°F 10AM 35°F 5-Day Forecast
  
  
  

  Parents of Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley are seen in their mugshots after being arrested on manslaughter charges: Cops found the couple hiding in basement of a Detroit art studio less than a mile from the Canadian border​

  • James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of Michigan school shooter, were arrested early Saturday in Detroit
  • The parents were booked into Oakland County Jail on Saturday; their bail has not been set
  • Couple led authorities on a massive manhunt with a $10,000 reward offered by the US Marshals
  • Tipster led police to their abandoned car on the east side of Detroit, where they were found in a building
  • Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald filed involuntary manslaughter charges against them Friday
  • They each face a maximum of up to 15 years in prison if convicted
  • In Michigan, involuntary manslaughter charge refers to contributing to a situation where death is likely
  • James Crumbley purchased the handgun police say his son, Ethan Crumbley, 15, used to kill four on Tuesday
  • Social media posts indicate the 9mm Sig Sauer was a Christmas gift from the parents to the teen
  • Days before shooting, Jennifer warned son 'learn not to get caught' after he researched gun ammo at school
  • She also posted a photo of the gun to social media: 'Mom & son day testing out his new Xmas present'
  • Prosecutors say the parents bought the gun their son used to kill four as a Christmas present on Black Friday, and failed to secure it after he penned a disturbing note saying 'thoughts won't stop, help me.' They each face 15 years in prison if convicted.
    
    Law enforcement sources say the couple withdrew $4,000 from an ATM and were last seen around 2-3 p.m. near Rochester Hills on Friday. They had been under surveillance at a motel where they had been staying since the shooting on Tuesday.
    
    Due to a communication breakdown between agencies, the surveillance was suspended by Friday morning and the parents left the motel unobserved before the charges were announced by prosecutors, according to WDIV-TV.
    
    
    Charging documents allege that the parents caused the death of each of the four deceased victims by 'storing his or her firearm and its ammunition so as to allow access to the firearm and ammunition by his or her minor child or the grossly negligent failure... to exercise reasonable care to control his or her minor child so as to prevent him from intentionally harming others or from so conducting himself so as to create an unreasonable risk of bodily harm to others knowing that he or she has the ability to control his or her child and knowing of the necessity and opportunity to do so.'
    
    
    

    Parents of MI shooter Ethan Crumbley break down in court

    James and Jennifer Crumbley broke down in tears Saturday morning as they each pled not guilty to all four charges of involuntary manslaughter. Bail was set for each parent at $500,000.

    www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[SomeSoldier]

It's amazing how this occured right after the Rittenhouse case and during the maxwell case. And just after some racist terrorist shit commited by a black man. Almost like demorats needed a win for their team. Just saying.

 

[livingston]

Parents of MI shooter Ethan Crumbley break down in court

James and Jennifer Crumbley broke down in tears Saturday morning as they each pled not guilty to all four charges of involuntary manslaughter. Bail was set for each parent at $500,000.

www.dailymail.co.uk

.. to exercise reasonable care to control his or her minor child so as to prevent him from intentionally harming others or from so conducting himself so as to create an unreasonable risk of bodily harm to others knowing that he or she has the ability to control his or her child and knowing of the necessity and opportunity to do so.'

Is this ever used when a gang banger kills another ?.. Parents convicted using this statute

 

[livingston]

During a press conference Friday, McDonald revealed stunning new details leading up to the shooting that took place Tuesday afternoon, including that Jennifer texted her son about 30 minutes after the rampage saying, 'Ethan, don't do it,' and that her husband James called 911 to report that his gun - a 9 mm Sig Sauer SP 2022 - was missing and that Ethan was likely the shooter.

One gets the impression she texted her son prior or during the shootings ...