Constructing AR using fixed-mag lower= "take possession"?

B

BlakeLok

.38 Special
Messages
49
Reaction score
15
Location
central mass
The NY law for semi-auto rifles states:

It is illegal to purchase or take possession of a semi-auto rifle without a semi-auto rifle license.

Does this include buying a fixed-mag lower through an FFL, a standard AR upper from a website, and attaching the two?

Has this possible loophole been tested in court yet? Any guidance from State Police?
 
Last edited:
Celt

Celt

.450/400 Nitro Ex
Messages
9,963
Reaction score
20,807
Location
Westchester
I would imagine a dealer would not sell you an AR lower receiver in New York without the semi-auto endorsement since they werent designed to be single shot.

But i certainly cant say for sure as i am not a lawyer. If you were to be found with a functioning semi auto, that was purchased after the law was written, you could be facing felony charges.
 
FP1201

FP1201

.338 Win Mag
Messages
7,286
Reaction score
12,005
Location
Adams, NY
An AR-15 Stripped Lower Receiver with or without a Magazine "locked in" is still a "Frame/Receiver/Other" and NOT a "Semi-automatic Rifle".

There is no record keeping, Amendments of the Licenses, or verification coupon process outside of showing that you have the endorsement allowing you to purchase a complete Rifle.

Remember back in the day when you got "carded" to buy a pack of smokes or booze? they just looked at the date to make sure you were old enough and that was it....same with the Semi-auto thing.
 
Drinkthekoolaid

Drinkthekoolaid

.475 A&M Magnum
U.S. Military
Messages
16,854
Reaction score
30,047
Location
Unfortunately, NY
No body knows because there hasn't been any sort of publicly known court case along these lines.

It's all speculation on our part and it's unfortunately open to interpretation from over zealous law enforcement you may interact with and an eager anti 2a district attorney.

We can all speculate exactly what is meant but frankly is confusing and obfuscated and no one really knows for sure. If you need specific advice ask an attorney or FFL?

Otherwise do what you are comfortable assuming as risk tolerance under your layman's interpretation of the law.
 
B

BlakeLok

.38 Special
Messages
49
Reaction score
15
Location
central mass
Lots of good responses. I dont want to be the guinea pig and possibly be in jail and owe a lawyer $50K to deal with such a test, so I guess I shall not be doing such an experiment.
 
FP1201

FP1201

.338 Win Mag
Messages
7,286
Reaction score
12,005
Location
Adams, NY
BlakeLok said:
The NY law for semi-auto rifles states:

It is illegal to purchase or take possession of a semi-auto rifle without a semi-auto rifle license.

Does this include buying a fixed-mag lower through an FFL, a standard AR upper from a website, and attaching the two?

Has this possible loophole been tested in court yet? Any guidance from State Police?
Click to expand...
If it's being "gifted" to you by an immediate Family member then there's no requirement to use a FFL in NY and therefor no requirement to prove such licenses, HOWEVER if you're buying a SAR (and the Dealer will know what constitutes a semi-automatic Rifle) then yes, you're going to have to prove that Licenses, which amounts to an endorsement of your NYS Handgun Licenses and if you have it not, you do not get the Rifle.
Magazine attachment is a separate issue; if you haven't the gold star to buy one, the magazine is irrelevant.
If it's just a stripped lower, then it's nothing but the serial numbered portion of the Gun: could be a bolt action, single shot 50, even an illegal MG, but it is not any of those until it's assembled as such, and if you built it into a SAR with Parts, then that's fine; it doesn't go on your Pistol Permit, no P-12 Form to the State, nothing, so long as it otherwise complies with the State AW Bans. (that's where the locked in magazine comes into play)

Only thing you'll ever get from the NYSP is "no, you can't do that" NEVER A STRAIGHT ANSWER, just the default of denial.
 
FP1201

FP1201

.338 Win Mag
Messages
7,286
Reaction score
12,005
Location
Adams, NY
BlakeLok said:
Lots of good responses. I dont want to be the guinea pig and possibly be in jail and owe a lawyer $50K to deal with such a test, so I guess I shall not be doing such an experiment.
Click to expand...
Bio says Mass: Why the interest in NY?
 
B

BlakeLok

.38 Special
Messages
49
Reaction score
15
Location
central mass
Celt said:
Call me paranoid, but asking that question on a public gun forum in NY seems like something the aft would do. Not that im saying you are. I recommend you follow all laws of the state you are in or you can find yourself in trouble.
Click to expand...
Yeah. My bad. I'll delete.

Edit- its gone. I'll just have to search on my own.
 
HEX

HEX

Please Reboot Universe
Admin
Messages
2,265
Reaction score
4,352
Location
Ulster County
I'm just going to say.. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking the initial question. If that were the case, we'd have to essentially never allow any "Would this be legal ?" posts. As for the other (now deleted) post, well.. maybe not quite breaking the rule but.. riding the line for sure.

Remember folks: It's rule #1 of the forum for good reason, and it's by far the rule that will be addressed most seriously.
1. No posting about illegal activity. NY Gun Forum is here to discuss the legal ownership and use of firearms in NY.

Take care and carry on..heh
 
dean3690

dean3690

.44 mag
Messages
848
Reaction score
1,284
Location
Freeville, NY
I would assume that if you buy a NY compliant AR with a Cali key (single shot) instead of the standard BCG, it would not be considered a semi auto. You would have the option of not pinning the mag if you have the proper stock to allow it.

I agree that the NYSP position would always be no you can't regardless of what the law actually states. And even if the guy you got on the hotline says yes, the next one asked the same question would likely say no and no one would put that yes in writing. If you get a yes, it only means that they have not heard that one yet and disseminated it to the ranks and told them to reject it.
 
B

BlakeLok

.38 Special
Messages
49
Reaction score
15
Location
central mass
ChatGPT says possessing an AR lower and upper, without a semi-auto license, and putting them together, is currently still a gray area of the new law requiring a semi-auto license, and has yet to be tested. Does taking possession mean putting together?There is a concept in New York law for prosecuting someone for possessing two separate parts of something that would be illegal if assembled. Chat GPT calls it "constructive posession". Basically if you have two things, it is assumed that you intend to connect them so as to make the illegal thing. Not sure I want to play that game.
 
Brawny71

Brawny71

.44 mag
Messages
803
Reaction score
1,037
Location
Jefferson County
BlakeLok said:
The NY law for semi-auto rifles states:

It is illegal to purchase or take possession of a semi-auto rifle without a semi-auto rifle license.

Does this include buying a fixed-mag lower through an FFL, a standard AR upper from a website, and attaching the two?

Has this possible loophole been tested in court yet? Any guidance from State Police?
Click to expand...
The action is what the law refers to. It is cycles automatically, you need a permit in NYS to purchase.
 
Brawny71

Brawny71

.44 mag
Messages
803
Reaction score
1,037
Location
Jefferson County
BlakeLok said:
ChatGPT says possessing an AR lower and upper, without a semi-auto license, and putting them together, is currently still a gray area of the new law requiring a semi-auto license, and has yet to be tested. Does taking possession mean putting together?There is a concept in New York law for prosecuting someone for possessing two separate parts of something that would be illegal if assembled. Chat GPT calls it "constructive posession". Basically if you have two things, it is assumed that you intend to connect them so as to make the illegal thing. Not sure I want to play that game.
Click to expand...
The grandfather clause for the law allows you to still own semi's you had prior. Any new semi requires you to go through an FFL and have a Semi endorsement on your permit. A local man just found out the hard way that private sales of all firearms (shotguns included) requires going through an FFL (first Un-Safe Act requirement). He was selling at a yard sale. Getting the pieces, putting them together even by ATF standards, puts it in the realm of the law. Not a believer, just stating the law in summarized method. The current gray area is if you have the pieces, but keep them separate, will you be charged.
 
B

BlakeLok

.38 Special
Messages
49
Reaction score
15
Location
central mass
Brawny71 said:
The action is what the law refers to. It is cycles automatically, you need a permit in NYS to purchase.
Click to expand...
Lower receiver can be attached to a bolt action or semi-auto upper receiver. So clearly not illegal to possess a lower purchased legally from a FFL with a background check.

But then also possessing an upper that is semi-auto? Thats the tricky part. Is it illegal to possess both parts, but unattached? Or is it just assumed that the plan is to attach them, which is a crime without a license in NY. Be kinda funny if its only illegal to possess both parts ATTACHED.
 
Brawny71

Brawny71

.44 mag
Messages
803
Reaction score
1,037
Location
Jefferson County
BlakeLok said:
Lower receiver can be attached to a bolt action or semi-auto upper receiver. So clearly not illegal to possess a lower purchased legally from a FFL with a background check.

But then also possessing an upper that is semi-auto? Thats the tricky part. Is it illegal to possess both parts, but unattached? Or is it just assumed that the plan is to attach them, which is a crime without a license in NY. Be kinda funny if its only illegal to possess both parts ATTACHED.
Click to expand...
“I made it compliant by putting the manual action on. That’s [Upper in box across the shed] only there for when I move ore it becomes legal again”
 
Last edited:
B

BlakeLok

.38 Special
Messages
49
Reaction score
15
Location
central mass
JamieZ said:
You can buy a lower in NY state from a NY dealer, build your own AR, all without a license.

Lowers are not semi-auto rifles
Click to expand...
Whats a good store in the Hudson Valley or Albany area that has lots of Upper Receivers in stock? Im looking for something classic, with the standard army handguard or a magpul.
 
Z

Zerex

.308 Win
Messages
3,529
Reaction score
2,701
Location
Rome, NY
Find me a NYS FFL, who will transfer a lower, LEGALLY THE GUN, by itself, and a semi to boot,......... without the semi endorsment.

Remington 7400, is an example, as is a Garand.
A FN 49 I purchased, required the semi endorsement.

Trying to get around the SAFE ACT, is futile.

Any AR lower can take a bolt action upper, or a regular upper.............instant AW.
 
Saltwater60

Saltwater60

20×102mm Vulcan
Messages
37,476
Reaction score
41,763
Location
Western NY
JamieZ said:
You can buy a lower in NY state from a NY dealer, build your own AR, all without a license.

Lowers are not semi-auto rifles
Click to expand...
This is true. It will likely depend on the FFL and how they interpret the law.
You only need a semi auto license if you build it as a semi auto rifle. There are other options.
 
pshift

pshift

.338 Win Mag
Messages
9,305
Reaction score
27,417
Location
90210
BlakeLok said:
ChatGPT says possessing an AR lower and upper, without a semi-auto license, and putting them together, is currently still a gray area of the new law requiring a semi-auto license, and has yet to be tested. Does taking possession mean putting together?There is a concept in New York law for prosecuting someone for possessing two separate parts of something that would be illegal if assembled. Chat GPT calls it "constructive posession". Basically if you have two things, it is assumed that you intend to connect them so as to make the illegal thing. Not sure I want to play that game.
Click to expand...
Do you REALLY want to put your faith and trust in ChatGPT? Will it pay your legal expenses? :)
 
pshift

pshift

.338 Win Mag
Messages
9,305
Reaction score
27,417
Location
90210
Can a dealer transfer a serialized lower receiver to an individual who does not have a semi-automatic rifle license?

A serialized lower receiver is defined as a major component, not a semi-automatic rifle. Because of this, serialized lowers can be transferred to customers who do not possess a semi-automatic rifle license. A NICS check is still required prior to transfer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top