Thinking about my carry ammo (9mm & .38). Currently load out is strictly hollow points. Wondering about whether should include some penetrating rounds in anticipation of an attacker wearing soft armor, or using a vehicle as a weapon, or shooting from behind cover. Thoughts?
Stagger HP and FMJ to deal with cars/cover/soft armor?
- Thread starter Rap
- Start date
stokes
.338 Win Mag
Been doing that for years.
Staggering in semi-auto pistol mags is not a good idea. Different types of ammo (bullet shapes, overall lengths.. particularly with case taper, as with 9mm, weights) stacked with each other could potentially lead to feed issues. Adding more possibilities for failures.. well, that's not good.
Generally speaking, it makes much more sense for people sharing your concern to carry one or more magazines with different ammo. I understand of course that one might not effect a timely mag change in certain situations, but it's certainly not worth the trade off of both potential failures AND the loss of generally more effective shots to be overly prepared for extremely specific and likely uncommon scenarios.
Personally I mostly carry 2 extra mags, and each has different ammo than the primary loaded mag. I'm not saying that's the 'best' practice necessarily (someone could certainly argue against it being 'best' for them), but it's objectively smarter than staggering rounds in any case.
When it comes to the revolver in .38, the issue of failures can be thrown out obviously, but I would still argue that trading out what are generally the more effective rounds in the generally more likely scenarios for rounds that MIGHT be slightly more effective in highly specific scenarios..well, that's a bad bet in my book. I'd handle that in the same way as the semi-autos, a quick load of different ammo (and that is exactly what I do when I do carry a revolver).
(And I've never YET met a professional or trainer that didn't agree with this and thought staggering was a good idea. I say YET because I'm sure someone is out there.)
Generally speaking, it makes much more sense for people sharing your concern to carry one or more magazines with different ammo. I understand of course that one might not effect a timely mag change in certain situations, but it's certainly not worth the trade off of both potential failures AND the loss of generally more effective shots to be overly prepared for extremely specific and likely uncommon scenarios.
Personally I mostly carry 2 extra mags, and each has different ammo than the primary loaded mag. I'm not saying that's the 'best' practice necessarily (someone could certainly argue against it being 'best' for them), but it's objectively smarter than staggering rounds in any case.
When it comes to the revolver in .38, the issue of failures can be thrown out obviously, but I would still argue that trading out what are generally the more effective rounds in the generally more likely scenarios for rounds that MIGHT be slightly more effective in highly specific scenarios..well, that's a bad bet in my book. I'd handle that in the same way as the semi-autos, a quick load of different ammo (and that is exactly what I do when I do carry a revolver).
(And I've never YET met a professional or trainer that didn't agree with this and thought staggering was a good idea. I say YET because I'm sure someone is out there.)
stokes
.338 Win Mag
Guess it depends on the gun you are using.Neither of my Glocks have ever had a feed or ejection issue.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
Use extreme defender projectiles.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
There was just a video of a guy shooting a hollow point through a car door on here and I wouldn’t want to be on the other side of that door.
Do some research and I’ll bet there are plenty of hollow points that go through car doors. I carry Hornady critical defense and they are shaped similarly to FMJ with a rubber plug in the hollow point tip to help with penetration. I never looked to see if anyone shot them through a car door.
As for a guy with body armor you’d better evaluate if that fight is worth it. I’m not running towards a shooter in body armor, sorry just not.
Do some research and I’ll bet there are plenty of hollow points that go through car doors. I carry Hornady critical defense and they are shaped similarly to FMJ with a rubber plug in the hollow point tip to help with penetration. I never looked to see if anyone shot them through a car door.
As for a guy with body armor you’d better evaluate if that fight is worth it. I’m not running towards a shooter in body armor, sorry just not.
The polymer tip in the Hornady is not to help with penetration, it's to prevent anything from clogging the hollow point itself which would in theory prevent it from expanding.
Mixing ammo is dumb.
Stick with a quality hollow point that meets the FBI standards (HST and Gold Dots are the 2 most popular rounds for a reason. Pick one of those 2 and carry on)..
If you think someone is wearing body armor and have to engage them, shoot them in the face or pelvic girdle
Stick with a quality hollow point that meets the FBI standards (HST and Gold Dots are the 2 most popular rounds for a reason. Pick one of those 2 and carry on)..
If you think someone is wearing body armor and have to engage them, shoot them in the face or pelvic girdle
spat
.950 JDJ
What sort of body armor stops a 9mm HP but not an FMJ ?
You think there are guys running around with some sort of weird level 1+ armor or something ?
Carry an extra mag of FMJ if you want. Can't hurt. I would not mix them in a single mag.
People make too much of a big deal about the differences anyway IMHO. Sure, they're statistically significant, but shot placement is so much more important that a shot that will stop with one round and not another is very very edge case to begin with.
stokes
.338 Win Mag
I dont carry with car doors or body armor in mind any more.Over the last 5 yrs my dogs have taken off after bears 4 different occasions on one of the trails and we've seen a large male 3 different times in the same area.Funny, they never get too excited or gave chase to the male, except once when it was feeding on a dead deer. I was shocked that it actually ran off that time.Anyways, I aint carrying a cannon so I want to have some FMJ's.I know, just carry the FMJ, but I choose to mix them.Now somebody explain to me how, if your gun reliably feeds FMJ and HP's, that staggering them would cause a malfunction? I have been doing it with no issues at all. I never use "range ammo", a nice way of saying cheap crap ammo, I empty all my carry mags by shooting them.Never had an issue.
Staggering ammo in the same magazine is not a good idea at all. In a gun fight you’re not going to sit there and think to yourself “Did I shoot 6 times or 7?”, “Was the 6th or 7th round an fmj?!”, “Is it the fmj or the hollow point in the chamber now?!?!”…it’s a stupid idea. So all that does while you’re shooting at a target, is it causes you think you need to get to the next round in the magazine which is either fmj or hollow point depending on what effect you’re trying to achieve…so to do so you’d have to expend the round in your chamber just so you can get to the next different style of round *Which you’ll never be able to keep track of either way*. If you’re worried about body armor, it’s not going to matter because in general it’s stops both hollow points and fmj, so that shouldn’t be a reason to choose specific ammo for pistols. What you’re looking for is ammo that is “barrier blind”. Use a little internet-fu and look up Dr. Gary Roberts’ reseach regarding ballistics and buy good quality duty ammo.
stokes
.338 Win Mag
You really think you're gonna have that much thought process going on in the middle of a fire fight?
It's not about keeping track; the idea is to fire until the threat is stopped, figuring if penetration is needed, then it'll be available to me, and relatively quickly compared to swapping magazines.
As to the wisdom of mixing ammo types from a mechanical standpoint, that's what I came seeking input on.
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
ya, I stack, Hydro-shok ----> Golden saber ----> Hydro-shok ----> golden saber ----> Hydro-shok -----> FMJ, FMJ, FMJ, FMJ, FMJ
A couple of cops have told me to thats what they do, so, is it a good idea? IDK, but my gun feeds them just fine, and it makes me happy
ya, I stack, Hydro-shok ----> Golden saber ----> Hydro-shok ----> golden saber ----> Hydro-shok -----> FMJ, FMJ, FMJ, FMJ, FMJ
A couple of cops have told me to thats what they do, so, is it a good idea? IDK, but my gun feeds them just fine, and it makes me happy
Lmfao
Are you able to explain your "laughter"? Otherwise your input isn't very useful...
So you think if a threat isn’t stopped you’ll just keep shooting 2 rounds each time (one for each type of round) so you can make sure one of them is the type of round you’re hoping comes out the end of your barrel…because there is absolutely zero way you’re going to keep track of what style of round is in your chamber. The world is too dynamic and fluid with people moving behind all kinds of cover, other bystanders, so many other factors for trying to remember what the order of the rounds you’ll have in your mag. I already provided the information you’re looking for, it’s barrier blind ammo. It performs well going through barriers but still slows and stops when impacting soft tissue. Worrying about defeating armor with pistol ammo is a moot point, the armor will most likely do it’s job no matter what ammo you have loaded in a pistol.
Its pretty self explanatory in and of itself
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
From my understanding is it prevents fabric from getting into the hollow point to help it penetrate properly. I should have clarified not through hard targets, but that’s what I understand it to do.
You've said "mixing ammo is dumb."
Can you expand on your position a bit like other folks are doing? Otherwise it's just an opinion.
Yes and no. Getting clogged would actually help it penetrate more.. but it prevents clogging by soft materials thus allowing the hollow point to expand and stay within the FBI specific 12-18" of penetration in calibrated ballistics gel
Don't forget to add a tracer round ever 3rd round.
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It's fucking dumb. No intelligent person, or legit organization does it or recommends it....
Boom simple wow
This is my random.02 cents.
Just stick with good reputable self defense loads for carry. I personally worry more about over penetration than under penetration. Car doors are pretty thin any hollow point should be able to punch right through no problem and if it starts to mushroom while going through the door all the worse for the person on the other side.
IMO my fear is if I ever have to use it, I don't want to over penetrate (giggity) and harm someone else. That's my fear.
Just stick with good reputable self defense loads for carry. I personally worry more about over penetration than under penetration. Car doors are pretty thin any hollow point should be able to punch right through no problem and if it starts to mushroom while going through the door all the worse for the person on the other side.
IMO my fear is if I ever have to use it, I don't want to over penetrate (giggity) and harm someone else. That's my fear.
@Rap if you are worried about some sort of method to defeat soft armor with a pistol you need to rethink your platform more than just what you load it with.
I believe the secret service went with this specifically for capacity and to defeat most level 3a and below soft armor.
en.wikipedia.org
It's the same reason newer PDW designs (mp7, p90) use smaller diameter higher velocity rounds and have a niche that the mp5 can't make
I believe the secret service went with this specifically for capacity and to defeat most level 3a and below soft armor.
FN Five-seven - Wikipedia
It's the same reason newer PDW designs (mp7, p90) use smaller diameter higher velocity rounds and have a niche that the mp5 can't make
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
This is accurate. I worry more about over penetration as well.
I’m also not looking to be a hero and save the world. I carry for my life and those immediately around me and mainly my family. Time will tell when it comes to it, but I’m not looking to go running into buildings or clearing stores at a mall to save lives. Will I help get people out yes, but I’m not going crazy
Most here have probably seen these, and they are a little out of date - 2015 - but still some good info - covers many different projectiles in each caliber.
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
ETA: I was mistaken, there have been a series of updates.
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
ETA: I was mistaken, there have been a series of updates.