Women charged with murder for a homeowner defending his home, women tried to kill deadman

SomeSoldier · Oct 7, 2022

So much stupid in one story.

VietnamEraVet · Oct 7, 2022

Well,... it seems that he chose poorly by being in the car with her to begin with. Then, by not avoiding her trying to run him over and just getting away. By then barging into someone's residence and then fighting with the resident to the point that he got shot and killed? I would venture a guess that he was not the sharpest tool in the shed.

And her? Just another scumbag that should just be taken out back and smoked. But noooo, OH will spend a million or more to convict and incarcerate her ass for decades.

Stupidity all around.

C3D · Oct 7, 2022

Classic case of felony murder. A clearer example: you chase a guy with a gun and he runs out in the highway and is killed by a car. You are guilty of felony murder because the death occurred during the commission of your felony.

In NYS, it's 125.25(3) of the Penal Code:

[You are guilty of second degree murder when] Acting either alone or with one or more other persons, he commits or attempts to commit robbery, burglary, kidnapping, arson, rape in the first degree, criminal sexual act in the first degree, sexual abuse in the first degree, aggravated sexual abuse, escape in the first degree, or escape in the second degree, and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another participant, if there be any, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants

22Cool · Oct 7, 2022

Murder by Rube Goldberg

Acer-m14 · Oct 8, 2022

C3D said:
Classic case of felony murder. A clearer example: you chase a guy with a gun and he runs out in the highway and is killed by a car.

so I'm chasing a guy who has a gun and i got one too ... and he get creamed by a car ...

its the cars fault and who made the car .. or is it the guns ??

PSA .. don't play in the road ..

Acer-m14 · Oct 8, 2022

Saltwater60 said:
The man trying to be murdered escaped and ran into a house where the home owner was. The home owner was armed, they fought, and the intruder was murdered.

no he/she/it was shot when entering the home without permission ..

don't run into someone's home with out knocking or ringing the door bell ..

spat · Oct 9, 2022

C3D said:
Classic case of felony murder. A clearer example: you chase a guy with a gun and he runs out in the highway and is killed by a car. You are guilty of felony murder because the death occurred during the commission of your felony.

In NYS, it's 125.25(3) of the Penal Code:

[You are guilty of second degree murder when] Acting either alone or with one or more other persons, he commits or attempts to commit robbery, burglary, kidnapping, arson, rape in the first degree, criminal sexual act in the first degree, sexual abuse in the first degree, aggravated sexual abuse, escape in the first degree, or escape in the second degree, and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another participant, if there be any, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants

Felony murder rule is an insult to the concept of justice.

The idea that some kid who steals a car is guilty of murder because a cop shoots his buddy who was driving is abhorrent.

C3D · Oct 9, 2022

spat said:
Felony murder rule is an insult to the concept of justice.

The idea that some kid who steals a car is guilty of murder because a cop shoots his buddy who was driving is abhorrent.

It's an ancient concept, it goes back to the earliest days of common law in the middle ages of England. And it makes sense from the standpoint of holding a criminal accountable or all the consequences of their crime.

gun_slinger_boy · Oct 9, 2022

spat said:
Felony murder rule is an insult to the concept of justice.

The idea that some kid who steals a car is guilty of murder because a cop shoots his buddy who was driving is abhorrent.

In some cases it makes sense and is just. In others it is appalling.

spat · Oct 9, 2022

C3D said:
It's an ancient concept, it goes back to the earliest days of common law in the middle ages of England. And it makes sense from the standpoint of holding a criminal accountable or all the consequences of their crime.

Only makes sense for reasonably foreseeable consequences of their own actions.

If a couple kids rob a 7-11 without any weapons and some cop mistakes one of their cell phones for a gun and kills him, it is absolutely not just to charge the other with his murder.

Even in cases where it would seem reasonable, it should never be murder. Murder is by definition premeditated. Can't be premeditated if it wasn't intentional.

spat · Oct 9, 2022

C3D said:
It's an ancient concept, it goes back to the earliest days of common law in the middle ages of England. And it makes sense from the standpoint of holding a criminal accountable or all the consequences of their crime.

We have eliminated lots of ancient concepts of justice because they were barbaric. This one should be added to that list.

If you can't or won't apply it universally, then it isn't justice.

Should every cop involved be charged when one uses excessive force ? Even if they try to stop him ?

C3D · Oct 9, 2022

spat said:
Only makes sense for reasonably foreseeable consequences of their own actions.

If a couple kids rob a 7-11 without any weapons and some cop mistakes one of their cell phones for a gun and kills him, it is absolutely not just to charge the other with his murder.

Even in cases where it would seem reasonable, it should never be murder. Murder is by definition premeditated. Can't be premeditated if it wasn't intentional.

It's very foreseeable that unintended death can result from a commission of a robbery.

Although to be technical, your 7-11 example would not be a case of felony murder under the statute. See the affirmative defense to felony murder in Penal Law 125.25(3).

Although if you change the example to say that the 7-11 robbers had guns, but had agreed not to use them, and the shopkeeper was armed and killed the robber, the other robber would be guilty of felony murder.

cgrutt · Oct 9, 2022

If the pair never intended to commit a crime against homeowner don't see how it applies in this case. Seems homeowner was brought into it only after the "victim" fled from being assaulted and was not the target of any crime.

prambo · Oct 9, 2022

Phazer · Oct 9, 2022

22Cool said:
Murder by Rube Goldberg

So....he had to stand there while a bowling ball came down the stairs, knocked over a box, which released a weight, that pulled a string, that rang a bell, that called a cat, that grabbed some fish, that loosened the refrigerator door, that pulled a lanyard, that fired the pistol?

Phazer · Oct 9, 2022

Lemme get this straight: A person who was running for their life escapes his assailant by illegally entering a stranger's home and then begins to fight with the homeowner that could potentially shield him? Ummmm...WTF?

spat · Oct 9, 2022

Phazer said:
So....he had to stand there while a bowling ball came down the stairs, knocked over a box, which released a weight, that pulled a string, that rang a bell, that called a cat, that grabbed some fish, that loosened the refrigerator door, that pulled a lanyard, that fired the pistol?

So, if you and your brother steal a car with bad brakes, and then your brother dies in a crash a week later driving it, did you murder him ?

spat · Oct 9, 2022

C3D said:
It's very foreseeable that unintended death can result from a commission of a robbery.

Although to be technical, your 7-11 example would not be a case of felony murder under the statute. See the affirmative defense to felony murder in Penal Law 125.25(3).

Although if you change the example to say that the 7-11 robbers had guns, but had agreed not to use them, and the shopkeeper was armed and killed the robber, the other robber would be guilty of felony murder.

Murder to be is premeditated.

You had to intend to kill or at least seriously injure your victim for it to be murder.

You should not *ever* be charged with murder for anyone you did not intend to harm, no matter how reckless your actions.

If it's not intentional then it's manslaughter, or negligent homicide.

I think for a case like the 7-11 robbers, negligent homicide is an appropriate charge.

Glenn B · Oct 9, 2022

Sadly, if the guy who got killed has family, there is a good likelihood they will sue the homeowner.

Glenn B · Oct 9, 2022

spat said:
Murder to be is premeditated.

You had to intend to kill or at least seriously injure your victim for it to be murder.

You should not *ever* be charged with murder for anyone you did not intend to harm, no matter how reckless your actions.

If it's not intentional then it's manslaughter, or negligent homicide.

Absolutely incorrect in the case of a felony murder charge. You only had to intend to commit a felony and then during its commission someone gets killed. Does not matter if an innocent bystander or one of the dirt bag's accomplices.

22Cool · Oct 9, 2022

From my understanding and having read about similar cases...if you're attacking someone with intent to do serious harm and they feel that their life is threatened in a way that they have to escape (ex. jump off a bridge or run into traffic...which has happened) and they die, you can be charged with murdering them because your actions to do them serious harm lead to their death.

C3D · Oct 9, 2022

spat said:
Murder to be is premeditated.

You had to intend to kill or at least seriously injure your victim for it to be murder.

You should not *ever* be charged with murder for anyone you did not intend to harm, no matter how reckless your actions.

If it's not intentional then it's manslaughter, or negligent homicide.

I think for a case like the 7-11 robbers, negligent homicide is an appropriate charge.

Premeditation is only required for one of the several different definitions of murder. Murder doesn't even have to be intentional. Felony murder and wanton indifference are two examples of murder that don't require premeditation or the intention of killing.

spat · Oct 10, 2022

Glenn B said:
Absolutely incorrect in the case of a felony murder charge. You only had to intend to commit a felony and then during its commission someone gets killed. Does not matter if an innocent bystander or one of the dirt bag's accomplices.

You are correct.

That is one of the things that makes the felony murder rule bullshit.

If you kill someone directly, but it's not premeditated, then it's not murder.

If you're target shooting without an adequate backstop and kill your neighbor, that's not murder. But if your passenger is killed in a car accident while you're carrying a 15 round magazine, it is ?

If you and a buddy are counterfeiting some cash, and he slips on the stairs carrying it out to the car and breaks his neck, that's murder ?

How about if you're passing some bad checks, and the guy in line behind you has a heart attack, is that murder ?

Our whole justice system is fucked, this is just one example.

fresch · Oct 10, 2022

Aren't most females guilty of murder one way or an other?

OwnTheRide · Oct 10, 2022

spat said:
Felony murder rule is an insult to the concept of justice.

The idea that some kid who steals a car is guilty of murder because a cop shoots his buddy who was driving is abhorrent.

Or the one where two home invaders went to the wrong house and one ended up dead because the homeowner shot him. The dead guy's accomplice was charged with felony murder. While I'm not exactly shedding a tear for the guy, that one just rubs me the wrong way.

Jchrisls · Oct 10, 2022

@spat - that's simply the definition of the differences in murder charges. Murder 1 must show proof of premeditation, a plan prior to the act to commit the murder. Lesser charges of murder ( EX- murder 2) do not need to show premeditation. Both are murder but only 1 shows premeditation.

Jchrisls · Oct 10, 2022

Phazer said:
Lemme get this straight: A person who was running for their life escapes his assailant by illegally entering a stranger's home and then begins to fight with the homeowner that could potentially shield him? Ummmm...WTF?

There seems to be way too many factors missing here.

spat · Oct 10, 2022

Jchrisls said:
@spat - that's simply the definition of the differences in murder charges. Murder 1 must show proof of premeditation, a plan prior to the act to commit the murder. Lesser charges of murder ( EX- murder 2) do not need to show premeditation. Both are murder but only 1 shows premeditation.

Yes, but a reckless act that results in a death is not murder at all.

It's typically criminally negligent homicide, or at worst manslaughter.

I could see either of those in these cases, assuming the death was directly related to the felony.

Your accomplice getting killed by the cops seems a stretch even for those. The accomplice is responsible for his own death, you shouldn’t to push that off on the other guy just because he was the only survivor.

If you are responsible for your accomplices death when the cops shoot him, then surely he's just as responsible. You were both committing the felony.

If he's just as responsible, then why isn't it the felony suicide rule LOL.

Women charged with murder for a homeowner defending his home, women tried to kill deadman

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