I'll be honest this is more impressive than I was expecting.
Sig .277
- Thread starter Drinkthekoolaid
- Start date
I'll be honest this is more impressive than I was expecting.
It is a stupid cartridge for a stupidly overweight rifle.
Xae289
.223 Rem
Agreed with Podmonkey.
Imo, it doesn't replace the .308 at all. It's fine if there wasn't already a .308, but in its standard form it's not much or any better. With the steel-base, 80k PSI version, it gains some great velocity with an AP penetrator bullet... OK, cool, but you can't switch between it and standard ammo without losing your zero.
As far as replacing the 5.56, no way. It's a higher recoil round in a much heavier rifle. The 6mm ARC would be a solid replacement for the 5.56 cartridge. Better external and terminal ballistics, the same size/weight rifle as current issue, a mild increase in recoil, and ammo capacity isn't as badly reduced.
Imo, it doesn't replace the .308 at all. It's fine if there wasn't already a .308, but in its standard form it's not much or any better. With the steel-base, 80k PSI version, it gains some great velocity with an AP penetrator bullet... OK, cool, but you can't switch between it and standard ammo without losing your zero.
As far as replacing the 5.56, no way. It's a higher recoil round in a much heavier rifle. The 6mm ARC would be a solid replacement for the 5.56 cartridge. Better external and terminal ballistics, the same size/weight rifle as current issue, a mild increase in recoil, and ammo capacity isn't as badly reduced.
oc shooter
.223 Rem
waste of tax payer money
Gotta keep the Inside Traders (Congress) to the Military Industrial Complex fat and happy...Solution to a non-existent problem.
Wonder what NATO is going to do? per our Charter Agreements, all member Countries have to utilize the same munitions and hold to the same standards, which unless I'm mistaken means about half the World will have to switch over to the Sig round and weapons utilizing it....Boom for manufacturers.
We'll supply our NATO allies with the new guns and ammo on the American taxpayer dime.
Our NATO allies will destroy their current issue because... guns are bad.
Our NATO allies will destroy their current issue because... guns are bad.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
Then destroy us with guns we bought.
My understanding of this cartridge is that in it's full (ultra high) pressure configuration, the steel based one, is that the energy levels approach that of the .300 Win Mag. In fact it seems almost ballistically identical to the old and defunct .280 Ross cartridge. I fail to see how thus would make a good cartridge for an infantry carbine, there are dramatic sacrifices to full auto controlabilityabd reduction in carrying capacity which produce a marked reduction in volume of fire which has long been identified as the single most important factor in a small arms engagement. The up weight of the system is also highly detrimental for tge ever increasing carry loads of modern soldiers. It seems the Army is betting the farm that modern infantry will always be able to have mechanized transport available. Tgis all being said this rifle and cartridge have not been accepted for universal adoption, rather this is a limited adoption for field testing and I seriously doubt things will go further than that.
If we are to adopt a new cartridge tge patg is so obvious to me as to be painful:
Take the 6.8 SPC case and neck ot down to accept a 6mm bullet. A 105gr or so 6mm pill launched at around 2,800fps would give a cartridge with reasonably moderate recoil yet also an extended range capability. Armor piercing capability could be achieved with a lighter steel core projectile though a construction similar to the current M855A1 bullet would provide excellent all around performance.
I think such a cartridge would have sufficient range and penetration to replace the 7.62x51 as well for use in general purpose machine guns including co-ax mounts in AFVs
The Navy and tge Marines proved way back in the Spanish-American war with the Lee Navy Rifle that a 6mm cartridge can fill all infantry roles. The 6mm Lee Navy acquitted itself well against tge Spanish troops armed with 7mm Muasers where the 30-40 Krags struggled. It worked then and it could work now.
If we are to adopt a new cartridge tge patg is so obvious to me as to be painful:
Take the 6.8 SPC case and neck ot down to accept a 6mm bullet. A 105gr or so 6mm pill launched at around 2,800fps would give a cartridge with reasonably moderate recoil yet also an extended range capability. Armor piercing capability could be achieved with a lighter steel core projectile though a construction similar to the current M855A1 bullet would provide excellent all around performance.
I think such a cartridge would have sufficient range and penetration to replace the 7.62x51 as well for use in general purpose machine guns including co-ax mounts in AFVs
The Navy and tge Marines proved way back in the Spanish-American war with the Lee Navy Rifle that a 6mm cartridge can fill all infantry roles. The 6mm Lee Navy acquitted itself well against tge Spanish troops armed with 7mm Muasers where the 30-40 Krags struggled. It worked then and it could work now.
no "one size" truly fits all: to get all the desirable features, others must be sacrificed: to get more terminal ballistics, you need more weight and speed which reduces capacity, cost more, and requires more effort to handle (shipping, battle load, rifle weight, etc.)
Battlefields change the dynamics: if you're doing CQB then a small caliber works pretty well, but once you've got to put some distance to the effectiveness drops off, and sadly the "Safety and Efficacy" of the Soldier is used as the solution's to problems most of us will never face.
We no longer have pragmatic Generals; Millie proved that with his insistence that it was "too expensive" to return Billions of Dollars worth of high grade Military weapons and equipment, when it was Generals such as Mc Arthur who kept many of our Battle Rifles and Machineguns chambered on 30'06 (we had stockpiles of it from WWl)
Whether WE like it or approve matters not, the fuck sticks with Fruit Salad on their chests have decided "something new" is needed and the solution to the Grunt's woes, and money in vast quantities will be spent, and the Comic Book Writers will gush over how super-duper fantastic it is and how YOU need a Rifle in the same caliber so you can battlefield pickup ammunition to use to become the hero you think you'll be....Look back at what happened when the US decided to replace .45acp 1911's with 9mm, now granted that was a move that was well justified (ever lift a full can of .45 Ball? shit's heavy!) but the point is everybody suddenly had to replace their Pistol with a 9mm.
"Every Bullet will kill, and you can't shoot fast enough to make up for a miss."
Battlefields change the dynamics: if you're doing CQB then a small caliber works pretty well, but once you've got to put some distance to the effectiveness drops off, and sadly the "Safety and Efficacy" of the Soldier is used as the solution's to problems most of us will never face.
We no longer have pragmatic Generals; Millie proved that with his insistence that it was "too expensive" to return Billions of Dollars worth of high grade Military weapons and equipment, when it was Generals such as Mc Arthur who kept many of our Battle Rifles and Machineguns chambered on 30'06 (we had stockpiles of it from WWl)
Whether WE like it or approve matters not, the fuck sticks with Fruit Salad on their chests have decided "something new" is needed and the solution to the Grunt's woes, and money in vast quantities will be spent, and the Comic Book Writers will gush over how super-duper fantastic it is and how YOU need a Rifle in the same caliber so you can battlefield pickup ammunition to use to become the hero you think you'll be....Look back at what happened when the US decided to replace .45acp 1911's with 9mm, now granted that was a move that was well justified (ever lift a full can of .45 Ball? shit's heavy!) but the point is everybody suddenly had to replace their Pistol with a 9mm.
"Every Bullet will kill, and you can't shoot fast enough to make up for a miss."
This is why I champion the 6mm. A cartridge like I described above would sacrifice terminal performance compared to 7.62x51 or this new 6.8 monstrosity but it would not sacrifice range nor penetration. Such a cartridge would not be quite as controllable as the 5.56x45 either but I think it would ve manageable. A good and balanced 6mm cartridge could reasonably fill the purpose of a general use infantry cartridge. A switch to a universal extreme range cartridge, be it 338 Lapua, any of the Norma variants or whatever, would ve a good compliment for use in precision rilfes and medium-heavy machine guns. I'd also favor replacing 9mm with something more modern and capable while we are at it. Something better suited for submachine gun/PDW use. I'd vote for the 7.5 FK or something like it.
oc shooter
.223 Rem
let's face it the only solution is the 7.62 we have a lot on hand our nato partners have it may not be the best but it will get the job done hits hard can be made controllable is easy on barrels cheapest solution for the country not my favorite but there it is
Only solution to what?
oc shooter
.223 Rem
replacing the 5.56