Why we need more than 10 round mags !

[turbobike]

10mm is effective SD round no doubt,... It's only real down fall is it's overall length in auto pistols, leads to feeding reliability issues. (As preached by Tom Sundle of Buffalo Bore)
That's were the physics of the short and fat 45 acp is superior, a lower percentage of failure when your life is in danger.

 

[Steal2B]

He was proven to be full of shit. You should read more, but then if id doesn't jive with your cockamamy views, coupled with the facts that you have no first hand experience in the arena, then you wouldn't believe it anyway.
Remember, stay in your lane.
Robin

S.L.A. Marshall was a liar who pulled fake and impossible data out of his ass, lied about his WW1 service (he did not lead men in combat but was behind lines exclusively setting up delosing stations), and lied about his rank (he was enlisted and not a combat officer) and training. The quoted The "Ratio of Fire" Claim is bullshit.

Modern historians determined "Ratio under Fire" is a statistical fabrication, in fact after Marshall died, researchers confirmed (after inspecting his personal papers and field notes) that SLA Marshall had gathered no statistical data or written records that actually supported his famous conclusion and writing. The total number of infantry companies Marshall claimed to have interviewed also "shifted arbitrarily across his lectures and subsequent revisions of Men Against Fire."

Military analysts universally agree that "sustained tactical defense and unit survival would be mathematically impossible if 75% to 85% of a frontline force permanently refused to shoot back under heavy fire."

Historians "demonstrated that Marshall operated more as a dramatic combat journalist than an empirical researcher, inventing a convenient psychological myth."

 

[Vapor]

9mm is poor at stopping people. That's why I carryy ar10 everywhere I go.

 

[fresch]

If you are in a position where you are pulling a handgun in defense, how close are you to the person/people ?
Take a step towards them, place it under the chin and let her rip. Any caliber at that distance is better than your hand.

 

[Zerex]

I find you accusations about SLA to be generally fabricated, and by sources out to grind an ax.

S. L. A. Marshall - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He was a SGT in WWI and ended up as a General.
He wrote 30 books none of which you list or claim as flawed or bogus.


You just want 30 round mags...............

 

[Steal2B]

I find you accusations about SLA

Get over it. SLAM was a fake news reporter in a uniform.

It is widely known, understood, and accepted S.L.A. Marshall was also a liar and a shameless self-promoter. His best-known book, Men Against Fire, is almost wholly, a work of fiction.

According to Robert Bateman and Military History in 2007.

"It has been known for more than a decade now that Marshall made up “facts” to support his personal theories and pet ideas. The most famous (or infamous) of those was his fiction that “no more than 15 percent of the men in combat fired their weapons in World War Two.”

"Even more damning than Marshall’s inflation of the number of interviews he conducted is the fact that he never seems to have asked anyone, “Did you fire your weapon in combat?” In none of his notes, either in the Army’s possession or on deposit in El Paso, Texas, or in re-interviews is there any record of his ever asking that question. "

none of which you list or claim as flawed or bogus.

His two quasi-theoretical works, Men Against Fire and The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation are works of fiction and there are several other works where the heros who SLAM embellished report SLAM made the shit up in order to create a captivating work of fiction sold as a historical account of battle. The most famous example is Marshall’s account of then-Major (now retired Colonel) David Hackworth (who was in fact a real hero who did not need to have shit made up about his heroism) from the work "Battles in the Monsoon."

Again from Military History


According to Colonel Hackworth ... “Throughout the time he was with the battalion doing his AAR [after-action report] we were not under fire. I think this ‘war story’ came from his urgent need to be a warrior. Something he probably never was.” Once again, Marshall created fiction to bolster his image and inserted it directly into the historical record."

"Despite all the lies and the fabricated statistics about the behavior of men in combat, is there anything in what Marshall wrote from which military scholars can learn today? Surely there are nuggets of wisdom embedded in his texts, but is it worth the trouble to go mining for them? It would likely prove impossible to determine what is true and what are merely Marshall’s personal pet theories in his two quasi-theoretical works, Men Against Fire and The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation. "

To pay the devil his dues, SLAM was a talented writer and he could turn a phrase better than most. I find it dishonorable and distasteful, however, to sell fiction as history. I also find stolen honor and lying to bolster self promotion unforgivable.

 

[dwa12479]

I find you accusations about SLA to be generally fabricated, and by sources out to grind an ax.

S. L. A. Marshall - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He was a SGT in WWI and ended up as a General.
He wrote 30 books none of which you list or claim as flawed or bogus.


You just want 30 round mags...............

Cites Wikipedia! Lol

 

[Robin]

I find you accusations about SLA to be generally fabricated, and by sources out to grind an ax.

S. L. A. Marshall - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He was a SGT in WWI and ended up as a General.
He wrote 30 books none of which you list or claim as flawed or bogus.


You just want 30 round mags...............

Well, you have convinced me. You are a complete idiot.
Robin

 

[Steal2B]

 

[nortatoga]

 

[Zerex]

I read all of Hackworths books, unlike you.

SLA was General Officer, and was no Fauci.

I can see how the Hochuls of the world, are intimidated by many gun owners that they read on line.

 

[Steal2B]

I read all of Hackworths books, unlike you.

Good for you, Dave used some big words.

 

[Zerex]

Hackworth was cashiered for his harsh big words about the Vietnam war.

His life afterwards, was generally tragic. His books are great reading, however.

 

[Steal2B]

Hackworth was cashiered for his harsh big words about the Vietnam war.

His life afterwards, was generally tragic. His books are great reading, however.

Cancer sucks.

I met Dave aka Hack (RIP) a few times and we even shared some sea stories. He was the real deal. He does not, however, share your love and admiration for SLAM who he has publically called out for multiple lies, some more stolen valor and SLAM's incessant self promotion.

Eilhys (RIP) was also amazing. (Take your time, she was the source of bigger words in his books.)

Their son Ben has had his success too but no longer lives in the United States, his other son David as well as his daughters have kept a low profile.

You may enjoy this from the Army War College (even though they too do not buy in to SLAMs bullshit but they love his prose.)

 

[tirwin1]

Get over it. SLAM was a fake news reporter in a uniform.

It is widely known, understood, and accepted S.L.A. Marshall was also a liar and a shameless self-promoter. His best-known book, Men Against Fire, is almost wholly, a work of fiction.

According to Robert Bateman and Military History in 2007.

"It has been known for more than a decade now that Marshall made up “facts” to support his personal theories and pet ideas. The most famous (or infamous) of those was his fiction that “no more than 15 percent of the men in combat fired their weapons in World War Two.”

"Even more damning than Marshall’s inflation of the number of interviews he conducted is the fact that he never seems to have asked anyone, “Did you fire your weapon in combat?” In none of his notes, either in the Army’s possession or on deposit in El Paso, Texas, or in re-interviews is there any record of his ever asking that question. "


His two quasi-theoretical works, Men Against Fire and The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation are works of fiction and there are several other works where the heros who SLAM embellished report SLAM made the shit up in order to create a captivating work of fiction sold as a historical account of battle. The most famous example is Marshall’s account of then-Major (now retired Colonel) David Hackworth (who was in fact a real hero who did not need to have shit made up about his heroism) from the work "Battles in the Monsoon."

Again from Military History


According to Colonel Hackworth ... “Throughout the time he was with the battalion doing his AAR [after-action report] we were not under fire. I think this ‘war story’ came from his urgent need to be a warrior. Something he probably never was.” Once again, Marshall created fiction to bolster his image and inserted it directly into the historical record."

"Despite all the lies and the fabricated statistics about the behavior of men in combat, is there anything in what Marshall wrote from which military scholars can learn today? Surely there are nuggets of wisdom embedded in his texts, but is it worth the trouble to go mining for them? It would likely prove impossible to determine what is true and what are merely Marshall’s personal pet theories in his two quasi-theoretical works, Men Against Fire and The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation. "

To pay the devil his dues, SLAM was a talented writer and he could turn a phrase better than most. I find it dishonorable and distasteful, however, to sell fiction as history. I also find stolen honor and lying to bolster self promotion unforgivable.

It was many years ago but the first time I read about Marshall's "finding " I was skeptical. How on earth could we have won world war 2 if so many soldiers never fired their weapon in combat? It simply didn't make sense. Did the Russians the Germans have the same issue?

 

[Steal2B]

It was many years ago but the first time I read about Marshall's "finding " I was skeptical. How on earth could we have won world war 2 if so many soldiers never fired their weapon in combat? It simply didn't make sense. Did the Russians the Germans have the same issue?

Yeah, it's bullshit. Not one interviewee can be found who Marshall ever asked about firing their weapon.

Acute combat stress ( shows symptoms like uncontrollable Trembling, freezing, panic, hyperventilation, or even temporary disorientation) is usually trained out of most combat soldiers.

In the real world of a volunteer combat force, most of those who are untrainable to fight or have no survival instinct would eventually be weeded out of a combat group. During WW2 some weeds were relegated to non-combat (but often still dangerous in theater) duties.

Even during WW2 conscription, long before battle our soldiers were trained and tested to fight through stress-induced loss of fine motor control. Hazing and stress during training has a purpose.

Firing, reloading and clearing weapon jams under stress are repeated thousands of times until they become automatic muscle memory, bypassing the cognitive brain during stress.

We are trained to exercise the Vegus nerve with controlled box breathing, and other techniques to lower heart rates and force the nervous system to regain trigger control and composure during high-intensity situations.

If that fails we are trained to rely on gross motor skill replacement that uses large-muscle, open-hand movements such as using a whole palm to slap a magazine release or rack a slide which works when adrenaline spikes if we lose fingers dexterity.

Military psychologists are also well aware that even if a fighter's flight instinct kicks in, they will usually find the will to fight to protect their brothers in arms.

 

[Robin]

Never met Hackworth but served with protege's that were in the Tiger Force. My neighbor served with him at Fort Campbell. The man is legendary.
Robin

 

[Steal2B]

The man is legendary.
Robin

Very well put.

Facebook

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He Became America’s Most Decorated Soldier… Then Exposed the War | David Hackworth #deltaforce #army

Discover the extraordinary story of David Hackworth, a highly decorated American soldier who earned numerous awards for his bravery in combat. Hackworth's mi...

youtube.com

 

[Zerex]

Dead men do not talk, nor can they be interviewed.

 

[Brawny71]

Dead men do not talk, nor can they be interviewed.

…. And reduce civil liability.

 

[spat]

The fact of the matter is that in WWII, it's not unreasonable for 85% of the soldiers to have never fired their rifle at the enemy.

Because the vast majority of troops were in support roles not direct combat.

For every guy storming a beach, there were 5 or 10 others doing logistics or supply or administrative work.

The guys running the red ball express were every bit as critical as the guys shooting Germans, but it's not at all unreasonable for one of them to have gone the whole war without having a German to shoot at, whether he wanted to or not.

For every gunner on a B17 there's half a dozen mechanics and ground crew keeping them flying.

None of those guys even saw a German who wasn't a prisoner or a civilian.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

The fact of the matter is that in WWII, it's not unreasonable for 85% of the soldiers to have never fired their rifle at the enemy.

Because the vast majority of troops were in support roles not direct combat.

For every guy storming a beach, there were 5 or 10 others doing logistics or supply or administrative work.

The guys running the red ball express were every bit as critical as the guys shooting Germans, but it's not at all unreasonable for one of them to have gone the whole war without having a German to shoot at, whether he wanted to or not.

For every gunner on a B17 there's half a dozen mechanics and ground crew keeping them flying.

None of those guys even saw a German who wasn't a prisoner or a civilian.

My dad did his duty in WWII without complaint. He was a Navigator on a B-29 that flew 25 bombing runs over Japan, including the March (5th?) night raid that firebombed Tokyo, and where his plane was shot up and forced to a belly landing on IwoJima among piles and piles of dead Japanese soldiers.

He was a lifelong pacifist who would literally turn his cheek and walk away from any conflict. A truly kind and gentile man in all respects.

When he was discharged in 1946, he turned in his 1911 handgun (I really wish he had kept it),- Oh Well!

After he died, I found his war photo album. I still get a big smile when I look at a picture of him with a Bowie knife holstered on his belt, and his 1911 in a chest slung holster while in a native village on Guam.

To my knowledge, he never ever fired it. I miss you dad.

 

[dsdmmat]

In Vietnam, stats say it took 50,000 M16 rounds to mask one kill.

Many experts believe that in combat only 60% ever shoot their weapons.

AI:
Historical research shows that in many wars, only about 15–25% of soldiers actually fired their weapons at an enemy, even when directly engaged American Heritage+1. This phenomenon, often called the “ratio of fire,” was first documented by U.S. Army historian S.L.A. Marshall after World War II, when he interviewed thousands of infantrymen in Europe American Heritage.

You need 30 round mags??
Refer to the above stats.

We have been over this before. War stats do not equal truth on the street. And thankfully it is a bill of rights not needs.