I think I will try the 147 HST standard pressure. Honestly I was all in on the lighter bullets, but from everything I'm seeing they are winning with the short barrels. Now if you have a mid size gun that changes.
Any of You Guys Carry 124 gr +P Gold Dots?
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
For soft tissue only. Not so where barriers are concerned.
You have to find a medium. 115 is great for barriers but often times doesn't penetrate enough in soft tissue. 147 penetrates nicely in soft tissue but you loses some barrier penetration.
124 is a happy medium in my opinion that works on both.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'm actually considering dropping the whole hollow point for carry. A flat nosed bullet will never underpenetrate or fragment no matter what the angle it is shot through or what clothing barrier it goes through. It's petals will never flatten going through something hard and then hitting a body causing underpenetration.
A .355 hole vs a .550 hole on average. I have to think about it.
A .355 hole vs a .550 hole on average. I have to think about it.
Lol I'm used to carrying a 45 anyways.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You might as well carry the .45 then. It's goes at the same speed but has a bigger diameter. The only pluses besides capacity a 9mm has over. 45 is speed and the 147 gr robs it of that.
Here is the problem Will. You do so much research on that extra inch and those slight FPS gains, but you completely ignore stats on actual gunfights (defensive CCW use). Most last just a few seconds, 3-4 rounds and nearly none involve penetrating barriers.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Not only do I carry for defensive ccw use, I also carry for anti terrorism. Trucks on London Bridge, ect.
I also research for combat use. There may come a time when I'm called into combat. (while you are in jail of course for a magazine because you are the man and couldn't wait.) Since I'll be free and and not in jail, I may need that round for that purpose.
I think 20 steps ahead instead of just 1.
So tell me, are the lizard people related to the crab people, or are they the same entity Mr. Jones?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I do not know what you speak of but in case you need clarification....
When I was in the Marines and Army National Guard, I carried what I was told to carry. I carried what bullet they wanted me to carry. I didn't know why they chose that bullet but even if I did, I still had to carry it even if I didn't like it or if the bullet wasn't effective.
Now that I have choice in what I can stockpile for use, I research to a T. I try to find out what more velocity does and what more grain does. It matters to me. I am not going to blindly choose something and not know why like most do.
Why should I. I'm in control now. So since I am in control, I want a bullet that'll work in most situations and not just some.
I read this forum and other forums to learn rather than wasting my time on a random thought of the day or political picture thread so I can have the highest post count. I post what I've found and perhaps someone else on this "GUN FORUM" can learn something or teach me something that I didn't know.
Rant over. You are still my man.
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Ooo you got me the, now skip directly to the part about researching the average gunfights, average number of shots, and average number of barrier penetrations needed.
Maybe a little more Massad Ayoob and a little less Yankee Marshall?
That's the problem with random thoughts of the day. They don't try to get people to follow their technical beliefs, while ignoring the "real life" factor.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Being that you've never seen combat, I'll let you in on something. Most shots taken are behind barriers. You don't have the enemy in an open field like in the Civil War or the enemy isn't going to try to rob you for 15 bucks while you are gassing up at Sunoco.Ooo you got me the, now skip directly to the part about researching the average gunfights, average number of shots, and average number of barrier penetrations needed.
Maybe a little more Massad Ayoob and a little less Yankee Marshall?
That's the problem with random thoughts of the day. They don't try to get people to follow their technical beliefs, while ignoring the "real life" factor.
Ok Steyr, clearly you have a reading comprehension issue.
Let's take a look here, I did mention HST after all:
What does that last line say? "Upcoming civil war ammunition?" "Deployment ammunition?" "Barrier penetration?" I guarantee a 50BMG will penetrate more barriers.
Oh no, "Personal Defense."
Now, what is "Personal Defense" here in NY? Well, hell, most places? Stopping the threat and getting away.
Still with me?
What tool do most of us use for that? A concealed carry pistol.
What did you ask?
"Who carries Speer Gold Dot 124..."
Guess what? IF I was looking for the best hunting round at 600 yards, I wouldn't say HST or Speer either.
We are not talking about "combat", we are not talking about "barrier penetration" we are not talking about "terrorist trucks." We are talking about personal defense CCWs.
Patience young ward. We will get to those some day.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And in your personal defense, can you not use it against a truck door to defend yourself? How about if you are trapped in a nightclub called the Pulse?
Can defensive ammunition not be used in combat in a handgun?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Do they sell offensive handgun rounds?
I imagine it could. There's a reason we don't choose them for combat rounds, as that's a different subject entirely, but I assume they could. Just not military combat, as they violates the Hague convention and all.
Yes. G2 rip offend the hell out of me.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
We aren't a member of Hague but that's not the point.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I'd rather carry a .380 FMJ than that garbage.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Clear gel is not an FBI approved test medium. Carry on...
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spat
.950 JDJ
There is a lot more to felt recoil than basic physics, and even a little more advanced physics can demonstrate differences. A plot of recoil force over time could show a drastic difference between 2 identical bullets leaving the same gun at identical velocities for instance.
spat
.950 JDJ
An important statistic that should be included is something like the standard deviation, or extreme spread in the ammo. Something that hits like a cannon 3 rounds out of 5, and a BB gun the other 2 will have a great looking average, but isn't something you want to carry for instance.
Well you have successfully sent me back down the ballistics rabbit hole. I'm convinced they ass suck compare to 357 sig. I don't see myself carrying on anytime soon so I'm still perplexed on what ammo I like for the 43.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
If two gold dots both weighing 124r leave the same barrel at different velocities the faster one can't produce less recoil (felt or actual) that I'm aware of.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If the difference between the 2 is close, the human body may not even feel the difference when one shoots one or the other.
spat
.950 JDJ
Sure it can.
If one uses a small amount of a fast burning powder and the other uses a larger amount of a slower burning powder.
If one accelerates to 90% of its final velocity in the first 5% of the barrel it will hit hard. If the other accelerates smoothly over the whole length it will be much milder.
Imagine 2 cars in a drag race, one that has very high acceleration, but a lower top speed. That guy can lose the race, but feel a much bigger force off the line. It's the same thing. You can't get a full picture from a single number like the total momentum or energy, you have to also look at how that energy and momentum were delivered over time.
If you were right, you wouldn't need to worry about pressure signs when reloading, all you'd need would be a chronograph.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
I'm talking about 124gr bullets not drag cars. I highly doubt the powders used are that different in the undewood vs speer. We are talking fractions of seconds here over under 4 inches. The recoil impulse of the faster bullet will feel shaper. Two 9mm's in the same gun shooting the same 124 gr bullet the one going 103 FPS is going to recoil more.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
and I hate NY.... I was trying to find a place where I could order the underwood to test them side by side. FUAC..
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
If they could make Downstate NY it's own state and make Central / Upstate NY a different state; that would be a beautiful thing. We are profoundly different than Downstate with regard to taxation needs, logical gun laws, etc. We literally have nothing in common with that area. If they could take the 5 boroughs, Long Island, and Westchester and partition that into a different state, I would be all for it. They could call their state New Amsterdam; which has historical value.
spat
.950 JDJ
It would be interesting to get an actual graph of impulse over time from the recoil the way the rocketry guys do for motors. I bet it would be possible to make a 2 reasonable loads where the faster one had a much smoother impulse despite a 100fps velocity. In the real world physics is much more complicated than textbook examples lead you to believe. Since the shooters grip changes the effective mass of the firearm, it can affect the actual delivered recoil energy and even muzzle velocity too. The obvious example of that is a semi that doesn't cycle because of a poor grip.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
The underwood is under 10% faster. One might not really feel the difference. I was going to try a non-scientific test (based on feel) but nope thanks to king Andy...