ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Are you now comparing the .38 long colt to the .45 acp? The .38 long colt is lighter and slower than the .45 acp. Energy does count. The .38 long colt can't even dent a frying pan.
Gun Myth #1: The 7.62x39 is a lot more popular than the 223 and 308W.
- Thread starter meketrefe
- Start date
FRANKIE
.308 Win
Hey wait a second! With some help from"cartridge nomenclature" add one halve of a millimeter for the 5.45x39 @ 5.45.5, Now, can we add this to the (1.5 gr in H2O capacity) lost to the 5.56x45 cartridge? LOL!
Can you tell I'm a 5.45x39.5 guy?
Great thread meketrefe!
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
The AK-47 even made it's way onto a flag!
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Thanks mang. We are trying to keep it real. Actually I kind of like the little bugger but they messed up and that is why the chinese jumped to make their own 6mm.
If they only had a strong brass case and a 224 then this could have been a lot different for the 5.45. If it was a 6mm with a couple of extra grains and a 60kpsi
ceiling then it would be the caliber everyone would want. Anyone who mad a 5.45 case like 5.45x41 case with the same face and extra grains will take
the horns by the bulls ... wait!?
the thinking heads need a brain laxative it seems. The chinese made the move in the right direction. More momentum on the target w/o going nuts with combat
load weight.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Energy is a myth. None of that matters especially if the bullet is a FMJ that will penetrate through both sides of a body.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Energy is not really a myth but just another value in a unit of measure.
It tells us something of certain value like other data.
IMO energy at the muzzle has little value because unless one is shooting something with the muzzle stuck to the target it really tells us the potential for energy but what it matters is the mass and speed at impact that changes with the distance.
But lets say that because of pistols and intended short range we want to evaluate this parameter. IMO momentum is more important because it also gives more information about potential knock down power. In terms of terminal effect we also need to consider speed and actual design and how the bullet is activaded for the intended target like @Willjr75 indicated. Sectional density and frontal section also play a role.
I think that a well balanced cartrige should have a decent performance in at least two areas and always consider first the proper bullet design for the intended target.
Momentum or power factor is a more maningfull measure than energy and often use by professionals to understand potential knockndown factor. But in terms of lethality it might mean something, or nothing at all.
It depends on the objective and application.
Makes sense?
It tells us something of certain value like other data.
IMO energy at the muzzle has little value because unless one is shooting something with the muzzle stuck to the target it really tells us the potential for energy but what it matters is the mass and speed at impact that changes with the distance.
But lets say that because of pistols and intended short range we want to evaluate this parameter. IMO momentum is more important because it also gives more information about potential knock down power. In terms of terminal effect we also need to consider speed and actual design and how the bullet is activaded for the intended target like @Willjr75 indicated. Sectional density and frontal section also play a role.
I think that a well balanced cartrige should have a decent performance in at least two areas and always consider first the proper bullet design for the intended target.
Momentum or power factor is a more maningfull measure than energy and often use by professionals to understand potential knockndown factor. But in terms of lethality it might mean something, or nothing at all.
It depends on the objective and application.
Makes sense?
Unfortunately Without reliable complete information the information listed first post is just as much conjecture as anything else. One would need information on all 196 countries to have a complete and accurate number of countries that have adopted the round.
This subject is like chasing a unicorn. I know the countries we are in conflict with are using 7.62x39 most of our "allies" in those fights are using 7.62x39 and we are providing pallets of 7.62x39 to those who are fighting with us. I have seen the pallets of ammo off loaded from the planes and it stacked up in our ammo storage areas.
So just to add to the complication of finding out what everyone uses, most African, South American, southwest and southeast Asian countries typically do not have "Facebook" pages that list information about their militaries. Chasing a unicorn indeed.
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ECU Pirates
.308 Win
The .45 is 11.5mm the .38 is 9.1mm. It's not one mm difference.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
A difference of 1.778 milimeters. No difference in stopping a charging Filipino Tribesman when both bullets go through both sides of a body in a FMJ configuration.
If I stab you with a knife in the heart that has a blade width of 1 inch and you die and come back to life and I stab you again with another knife in the heart with a blade that has a width of 3/4's of an inch, you will die again.
If I shoot you in the stomach with either the .38 Long Colt or the .45 ACP, you however will not die immediately with the .38 Long Colt and die instantly with the .45 ACP according to you.
My calculator says 11.5 - 9.1 = 2.4.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Mine says 11.43-9.652=1.778My calculator says 11.5 - 9.1 = 2.4.
Regardless of the numbers, a .45 ACP will blow your head clean off....Even if shot in the gut.
The 38 colt bullet diameter is .361 or 9.2 mm (9.164) I don't know where you are getting 9.652mm from.
The 45 ACP is .452 or 11.5mm (11.48)
If I am not mistaken the 38 colt revolver used in the Philippines was replaced with the 45 colt revolver. The model 1902 and not the 1911, the first 1911s in the Philippines did not arrive until the 1940s
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The 45 ACP is .452 or 11.5mm (11.48)
If I am not mistaken the 38 colt revolver used in the Philippines was replaced with the 45 colt revolver. The model 1902 and not the 1911, the first 1911s in the Philippines did not arrive until the 1940s
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
One mm larger or 2 mm's larger, .38 Special, .38Long Colt, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, the result is the same. Complete pass through. None have FPS over 2000 to stretch temporal stretch cavities beyond elasticity.
We are talking mm's here and not inches.
We are talking mm's here and not inches.
True but also true is 9mms may expand to 45 size and 45s will never shrink to 9mm size.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
The cartridge's relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine–American War of 1899–1902, when reports from U.S. Army officers were received regarding the .38 bullet's inability to stop charges of frenzied Moro juramentados in the Moro Rebellion, even at extremely close ranges.[3][4][5][6] A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Col. Louis A. LaGarde:
Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.[7]
Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went though the right hand and exited through the forearm.[8]
As an emergency response to the round's unexpectedly dismal performance, the U.S. Army authorized officers to carry M1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, and issued from reserve stocks. Army Ordnance also purchased a number of M1902 revolvers (the M1902 was actually Colt's New Double Action Army Model 1878, a .45-caliber rod-ejector double-action revolver) for issue to officers deploying overseas.
I think the .45acp would have done a better job. I can't be sure of course.
Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.[7]
Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went though the right hand and exited through the forearm.[8]
As an emergency response to the round's unexpectedly dismal performance, the U.S. Army authorized officers to carry M1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, and issued from reserve stocks. Army Ordnance also purchased a number of M1902 revolvers (the M1902 was actually Colt's New Double Action Army Model 1878, a .45-caliber rod-ejector double-action revolver) for issue to officers deploying overseas.
I think the .45acp would have done a better job. I can't be sure of course.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Right but in that case unless they are over 2000 FPS and fragmenting, It doesn't matter. We are talking mm's.
I believe, The 45 colt was loaded with lead rounds where as the 45 ACP would have been FMJ. I believe The 45 colt lead rounds would have been better due to the lead expansion vs just a little deformation of the FMJ. I could be mistaken though.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Which goes back to a previous post somewhere further up. Upgrading to a MM or two larger in a FMJ= Same Shit. We are talking about pistols here which are all shit ballistically speaking and not rifles.
This General who authorized this upgrade did so with no knowledge of ballistics just the same as our Generals who authorized Green Tipped rounds for the M249 Saw for rifle use. Generals and Police Chiefs are known for making decisions based on no knowledge and internet commando's take those decisions as fact.
Look at the uniform fiasco created by Generals and tell me that Generals know what they are talking about.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Lead doesn't expand at those slow pistol velocities of less than 800 fps in a human body.
The 45 colt had an established track record through the Indian wars and out on the American west, the 38 colt did not have a proven track record when it was adopted.
Current Lead alloys will not but the lead bullets of the time were not hardened like today's alloys. Pure lead is vey soft and deforms rather easily. The lead alloys of the around the 1890s- 1900s were normally 20-1 lead to tin with a hardness of 8-10. A very malleable round with a tendency to deform and expand at the velocities produced by the black powder cartridges of the day
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Glenn B
.308 Win
In that case please show us your data that there is a myth (not just some people here and there with a belief but something of proportions to establish it as a myth) that 7.62x39 is more popular than 5.56x45mm/223. I have never heard that claim made by anyone, let alone of it being a myth (at least by the classic definition of myth).
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
Here is an article from 2013. I tend to believe number 4. And according to it 106 countries use it in some shape or form. I believe that as well.
RIP Kalashnikov: 20 facts you may not have known about AK-47 and its creator
RIP Kalashnikov: 20 facts you may not have known about AK-47 and its creator
Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Don't forget the one that 5.56 was designed only to injure not kill.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Another myth.... The 10mm is equal to the .41 mag (in terms of ballistics).