Are Online Retailers Killing Local Gun Stores? Should We Care?

[GOPerfect]

Then you run a good shop. Unfortunately, most aren’t that way. I once asked a shop if they had 124 gr HSTs. They brought out Hydrashocks and told me that it was the same thing. I also once asked them if they would transfer a Keltec KSG. They told me that it was illegal. I had to go to the next county over to get it done. The same thing happened with an SKS. Afterwards I stopped asking and never bought anything from them again even if it was 100 percent Fudd legal or a handgun.

I remember when I was selling guns; so many in the business had little to no knowledge of the gun laws.

I try to start conversations on a regular basis at gun shows, it is amazing the amount of incorrect information these FFL's give out.

 

[tc556guy]

The cost of a particular item is all that motivates me.

Once I figure out what item I want, I shop the price. Lowest overall cost is the only factor to me. I do not grade customer service or help after the sale. I think this is the main reason not many people buy guns at gun shows. Nearly always over priced.

If the local store or the individual cannot buy and sell at a price that is attractive, doors close. It is a shame that so many in the business cannot compete.

Thanks for proving my point.
Some people will say that service will rope them in the door of the local gun store.
Or that they'll throw a few bucks towards something else in the place. Which some do.
In the end, most gun buyers are motivated purely by the bottom line. Which is understandable. But it can go to an extreme. I lost one guy as a customer years ago who wanted a fairly difficult at the time to find gun, and he wanted two of them, with sequential serial numbers, if I recall the transfer correctly. I got him the guns , and he was ultimately upset that the wholesaler I'd used had cost him $5 more in shipping than another vendor would have. And he never came back for another transfer.
There are all types of people out there

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not everyone is like that though. I for one would absolutely pay about 40 bucks more for convenience when buying a gun rather than buying online, waiting for shipment, and then having to go to a gun shop anyway to pick it up.

At least I can see the gun and see whatever imperfections are on it. But if it’s considerably more than that, then I would absolutely buy elsewhere.

 

[Robin]

Where on the FFL application does it require that you must be an arrogant knowitall prick and only hire the same? Seems to be universal.
Robin

 

[tc556guy]

Where on the FFL application does it require that you must be an arrogant knowitall prick and only hire the same? Seems to be universal.
Robin

There's some truth to your comment.
I can guess that perhaps dealing with certain segments of the gun community has a corrosive effect on their spirit.

 

[dsdmmat]

My gun dealer is the wife of my gunsmith, who also happens to be a friend of mine. I head to the shop every Friday night to visit, buy something, help out in the back, generally talk about guns, life and anything interesting on the bench. I try to buy something every time I am in the store. Her distributors treat her very well and can usually get anything she wants to her quickly. They also try to make sure she gets at least one of the first the hard to get guns on the market.

When I am upfront people ask me questions, sometimes they ask my opinion on things. I am not an employee so I am careful about what I say. Usually I will defer to the boss lady. If it is a simple question of do you have this? I will show them where it is, or go get it from the back, if boss lady is busy. If I have experience with a particular gun or product, and they ask, I will tell them what it did for me. I don’t put it out there without being asked.

I am getting pretty good on the milling machine and diagnosing gun issues though. I learn some thing new every Friday and in The summer time we go out back and shoot after the store closes for the day.

I am a pretty lucky guy.

 

[beebee]

I go to a local place whenever possible, and have bought a bunch of guns off of them, and they are always in the ballpark price wise.. Yeah I may get it $50 cheaper online, but then when i figure out shipping and the FFL fee, I find it makes a lot more sense to buy locally.. It all depends on the Item,, Sometimes you see an item that the LGS store just cannot compete with on price.

Not all that long ago, I bought a PC Carbine online on sale for $399 with free shipping.. Found an FFL that would do the transfer for $20...
Locally every single gun shop was selling that gun at $579-599... It was the obvious choice to pay $175 less for the same gun... bob

 

[Robin]

I buy local when I can, even if it hurts now and then.
Robin

 

[kev74]

The last few guns I've bought were used. I much rather buy used guns locally than online. A lot less surprises that way.

 

[ExMember_4526]

I hope more fellow Capitalists will speak up here:

• We all have perceived needs & wants

• Money is a medium of exchange that is utilized for that end

• You can obtain that medium of exchange by selling your labor/time on the market, selling goods or services, etc

• Some people sell goods/services relating to firearms

• In order to gain the business of a consumer in that (or any) market, you have to incentivize them to give you business!

• You have to demonstrate/convince the value of your good/service over the competitors!

• An example of how this can be achieved is by either offering a cheaper price for the same good/service as the competition, offer a product/service that the competition cannot, or demonstrate/convince why your product/service justifies the higher price point!

• Consumers don’t owe the LGS anything!!!! If you can’t compete in a competitive market, get out of the way!

Maybe it’s my education that was devoid of the command economy BS perpetuated by bunch of Statist-“Progressive” Mini Tyrants, but in my mind Free Markets are AWESOME!!!!

 

[tc556guy]

I hope more fellow militant Capitalists will speak up here:

• We all have perceived needs & wants

• Money is a medium of exchange that is utilized for that end

• You can obtain that medium of exchange by selling your labor/time on the market, selling goods or services, etc

• Some people sell goods/services relating to firearms

• In order to gain the business of a consumer in that (or any) market, you have to incentivize them to give you business!

• You have to demonstrate/convince the value of your good/service over the competitors!

• An example of how this can be achieved is by either offering a cheaper price for the same good/service as the competition, offer a product/service that the competition cannot, or demonstrate/convince why your product/service justifies the higher price point!

• Consumers don’t owe the LGS jack!!!! If you can’t compete in a competitive market, get the .... out of the way & crash and burn! Capitalism, B....!

Maybe it’s my private school Jew education that was devoid of the command economy BS perpetuated by bunch of Statist-“Progressive” Mini Tyrants, but in my mind Free Markets are AWESOME!!!! Capitalism: yayyyyy! Command Economy (Socialism): Boooooo!

Sounds good on paper, but here's the reality...if all of the local dealers go under, where are you going to get your transfers done? Are you really going to be willing to drive an hour each way to go to one of the dwindling number of FFLs as regulations and pricing issues cause more and more dealers to bail out of the business? Maybe it's not an issue for some of you, but I know that I am picking up more and more people from surrounding counties as the numbers of available FFLs for transfers shrinks
Or maybe if you have the answers, maybe you should grab your own FFL and make yourself available for customers

 

[ExMember_4526]

@tc556guy

With all due respect:

“Sounds good on paper, but here's the reality...if all of the local dealers go under, where are you going to get your transfers done?”

• As the market develops (as all do), I’ll go to whoever offers the best incentive (I’m a consumer in this role), and those who offer that incentive will be whichever market players fill the “void” that you’re hypothetically describing. (Based on who dominates that market space)

• Again, Capitalism... let the winner take the spoils!

“Are you really going to be willing to drive an hour each way to go to one of the dwindling number of FFLs as regulations and pricing issues cause more and more dealers to bail out of the business? Maybe”

• Firstly, be careful who you vote for. Get people organized, mobilized, etc to fight regulations on small arms & other markets! Look what happened in VA! It could happen anywhere!

• Educate people! If more people understood the fundamentals of economics, you’d have less people voting for the party whose mascot is a Jack Ass! (Or incentivize that party to change its policy positions on free market activity)

• The Rest of what you said is a straw man! You are creating a hypothetical situation, where a certain predetermined end is in place, with the implication that I must buy from the LGS or this will happen! BS!

• Just saying... and I’m all about being law abiding (this is a public forum), but if the state regulates a market into “legal” oblivion, other markets will expand that are labeled with a certain color! That’s an option!

• Also, with all due respect, but based on the current law, I DON’T need ammo shipped to an FFL! That’s BS! I believe (& I could be mistaken), that you implied (above in this thread) that ammo purchases required shipment to an FFL.My apologies if I misunderstood!

 

[Bustedknees]

I hope more fellow militant Capitalists will speak up here:

• We all have perceived needs & wants

• Money is a medium of exchange that is utilized for that end

• You can obtain that medium of exchange by selling your labor/time on the market, selling goods or services, etc

• Some people sell goods/services relating to firearms

• In order to gain the business of a consumer in that (or any) market, you have to incentivize them to give you business!

• You have to demonstrate/convince the value of your good/service over the competitors!

• An example of how this can be achieved is by either offering a cheaper price for the same good/service as the competition, offer a product/service that the competition cannot, or demonstrate/convince why your product/service justifies the higher price point!

• Consumers don’t owe the LGS jack!!!! If you can’t compete in a competitive market, get the .... out of the way & crash and burn! Capitalism, B....!

Maybe it’s my private school Jew education that was devoid of the command economy BS perpetuated by bunch of Statist-“Progressive” Mini Tyrants, but in my mind Free Markets are AWESOME!!!! Capitalism: yayyyyy! Command Economy (Socialism): Boooooo!

Never take advice from someone who does not know why Johnny Cash walked the line, what hotel Elvis stayed in or never sang Sweet Caroline..

 

[dsdmmat]

Thread Reopened. Please keep it civil.

 

[Robin]

 

[ExMember_4526]

@tc556guy

Could you confirm that we actually enjoyed the developing dialogue, and that you understand that my snarky comments were not meant to be taken seriously?

Back to my main point:

Free markets are great: I, in the role as the consumer, don’t feel I “owe” the LGS anything. The LGS, as the seller, needs to demonstrate/convince me of the value of their product/service. Once that has been achieved, they have my business in the form of a free mutual exchange! (Economics, yay!)

For those who are hyper sensitive when it comes to the subject of free market activity, I’ll say it in a very PC way (this is not directed at tc556, he’s actually into this dialogue):

If you can’t compete in a competitive market, kindly step to the side, consider another vocational endeavor, as those who have more of a competitive edge will succeed!

Free Market Economy = Good!

Command Economy = Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, etc

 

[tc556guy]

@tc556guy

Could you confirm that we actually enjoyed the developing dialogue, and that you understand that my snarky comments were not meant to be taken seriously?

Back to my main point:

Free markets are great: I, in the role as the consumer, don’t feel I “owe” the LGS anything. The LGS, as the seller, needs to demonstrate/convince me of the value of their product/service. Once that has been achieved, they have my business in the form of a free mutual exchange! (Economics, yay!)

For those who are hyper sensitive when it comes to the subject of free market activity, I’ll say it in a very PC way (this is not directed at tc556, he’s actually into this dialogue):

If you can’t compete in a competitive market, kindly step to the side, consider another vocational endeavor, as those who have more of a competitive edge will succeed!

Free Market Economy = Good!

Command Economy = Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, etc

I'm good with the conversation.
Sorry if anyone took offense at anything that was said

 

[LMS]

Free markets are great: I, in the role as the consumer, don’t feel I “owe” the LGS anything. The LGS, as the seller, needs to demonstrate/convince me of the value of their product/service. Once that has been achieved, they have my business in the form of a free mutual exchange! (Economics, yay!)

What happens when there are is longer an LGS to go to so that you can experience how some something you want to buy feels in your hand, how the trigger breaks, etc? My take - if you go to that guy's shop and manhandle his inventory, you should give him a chance to give you a reasonable deal. When I get a price that is close to what I can get on the web, I buy it there.

 

[ExMember_4526]

What happens when there are is longer an LGS to go to so that you can experience how some something you want to buy feels in your hand, how the trigger breaks, etc? My take - if you go to that guy's shop and manhandle his inventory, you should give him a chance to give you a reasonable deal. When I get a price that is close to what I can get on the web, I buy it there.

• So, when I participate in the free market, I do so in the context of a mutual exchange, based on mutual terms.

• The seller wants me to come into the store and look at his product line (with the hope that I will choose to purchase something)

• I always ask if I can “see” (handle) a given product. I certainly don’t “manhandle”, if I were to cause a damage, I’d pay (Compensate).

• By entering the store, I’m giving the seller his “chance”. That’s based on my free decision to do so. I’m certainly not obligated to give him a “chance“.

• If other market players give me a more compelling reason (based on price, convenience, selection, etc) to seek them out first, the LGS needs to devise better measures to incentivize me to want to stop by and give him/her their “chance”. (Marketing)

• What’s considered “reasonable” is subjective! The final outcome, a mutual free exchange, will determine if we BOTH felt the deal was reasonable!

See, Capitalism is awesome!

 

[beebee]

Sounds good on paper, but here's the reality...if all of the local dealers go under, where are you going to get your transfers done? Are you really going to be willing to drive an hour each way to go to one of the dwindling number of FFLs as regulations and pricing issues cause more and more dealers to bail out of the business? Maybe it's not an issue for some of you, but I know that I am picking up more and more people from surrounding counties as the numbers of available FFLs for transfers shrinks
Or maybe if you have the answers, maybe you should grab your own FFL and make yourself available for customers

I doubt that will happen.. LOTS of FFL's do it as a sideline out of their kitchens, been to a couple already.. They won't starve if gun sales all go internet... bob

 

[dsdmmat]

• So, when I participate in the free market, I do so in the context of a mutual exchange, based on mutual terms.

• The seller wants me to come into the store and look at his product line (with the hope that I will choose to purchase something)

• I always ask if I can “see” (handle) a given product. I certainly don’t “manhandle”, if I were to cause a damage, I’d pay (Compensate).

• By entering the store, I’m giving the seller his “chance”. That’s based on my free decision to do so. I’m certainly not obligated to give him a “chance“.

• If other market players give me a more compelling reason (based on price, convenience, selection, etc) to seek them out first, the LGS needs to devise better measures to incentivize me to want to stop by and give him/her their “chance”. (Marketing)

• What’s considered “reasonable” is subjective! The final outcome, a mutual free exchange, will determine if we BOTH felt the deal was reasonable!

See, Capitalism is awesome!

The US does not have pure capitalism
Capitalism is awesome to a point of just before monopolies controlling everything from food to information.

Crony Capitalism is what we have in the US where the government picks the winners and losers. That system is problematic but it is the best we have at the moment.

 

[tc556guy]

I doubt that will happen.. LOTS of FFL's do it as a sideline out of their kitchens, been to a couple already.. They won't starve if gun sales all go internet... bob

The latest bill from Cuomo will put a dent in a lot of the tabletop dealers who are left. Twenty years ago there were around twelve true tabletop dealers in my county. Now, I'm it. If the legislation requiring cameras, alarms, fireproof safes, etc passes....and I have little faith that it won't, eventually, then there goes the bulk of tabletops, as I don't see them buying all of that stuff to stay in compliance. I consider myself a tabletop despite keeping some stuff in stock, and the bill that will require that I keep ammunition separate from customers will have a huge impact on me. I'm already in compliance on the other stuff I mentioned. Bringing ammunition access into compliance is do-able for me, but it will require some construction and reorientation within my limited operating space. I really hope that they don't pass, but this state government doesn't see a gun control bill it doesn't like

 

[Marine Cpl]

And when those laws requiring safes, cameras, ect come to fruition and some tabletop FFL’s decide to close their doors because they cannot afford to comply or just prefer not to, once their is a big enough void, someone else will become one with those cameras and safes because they will make a killing.

 

[MikeyCNY]

I remember when I was selling guns; so many in the business had little to no knowledge of the gun laws.

I try to start conversations on a regular basis at gun shows, it is amazing the amount of incorrect information these FFL's give out.

It doesn't help that the law (not just gun laws, ALL LAWS) is so convoluted, written not in plain English but in lawyer-speak, that is impossible for any one person to know every law there is.

I go to a local place whenever possible, and have bought a bunch of guns off of them, and they are always in the ballpark price wise.. Yeah I may get it $50 cheaper online, but then when i figure out shipping and the FFL fee, I find it makes a lot more sense to buy locally.. It all depends on the Item,, Sometimes you see an item that the LGS store just cannot compete with on price.

Not all that long ago, I bought a PC Carbine online on sale for $399 with free shipping.. Found an FFL that would do the transfer for $20...
Locally every single gun shop was selling that gun at $579-599... It was the obvious choice to pay $175 less for the same gun... bob

This is how I feel - $50 is about my cut-off, though it also depends on the item, and service. I certainly sympathize with FFLs in this state; it can't be easy. In the past 10 years I can think of 3 different "mom & pop" shops that have closed. One was right after (un)SAFE Act passed, and was run by an ex-cop. He said he didn't have the time to navigate it.

 

[Bustedknees]

So who wants to share what the mark-up is on the average rifle or pistol..

 

[Marine Cpl]

It doesn't help that the law (not just gun laws, ALL LAWS) is so convoluted, written not in plain English but in lawyer-speak, that is impossible for any one person to know every law there is.

I don’t know but I find them pretty damned clear. They are written in plain English. Sometimes I may not know what a word means but a quick Google search fixes that.

The only problem I see is when one set of laws directly contradicts another. For example, all firearms are illegal at NY rest stops as per NYS DOT laws yet Penal Law 400 says that a license to carry is valid throughout the state without regard to place of possession except for NYC. In that case one has to figure out which law has supremacy.

 

[GOPerfect]

So who wants to share what the mark-up is on the average rifle or pistol..

Not much at all. When I was selling guns at Gander a few years back, we were able to see exactly what Gander paid for guns. I was very surprised at how low the mark up was. Not much in new guns sales.

Springfield SXD for example...

The store was selling them for $579. Gander was paying, I think, $495. Not much in that at all.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not much at all. When I was selling guns at Gander a few years back, we were able to see exactly what Gander paid for guns. I was very surprised at how low the mark up was. Not much in new guns sales.

Springfield SXD for example...

The store was selling them for $579. Gander was paying, I think, $495. Not much in that at all.

Question. Then how come a place like Bud’s buys them for much cheaper and sells them for much cheaper? Bulk maybe?

 

[ExMember_4526]

“Question. Then how come a place like Bud’s buys them for much cheaper and sells them for much cheaper? Bulk maybe?”

@Marine Cpl


ha, you serious dude? Duh!!!! Why is Walmart able to sell things cheaper than others?

Corporal, your feelings hurt, or we cool?

 

[ExMember_4526]

Question. Then how come a place like Bud’s buys them for much cheaper and sells them for much cheaper? Bulk maybe?

ha, you serious dude? Duh!!!! Why is Walmart able to sell things cheaper than others?

Too snarky, am I getting moderated again? Corporal, your feelings hurt, or we cool?