Collapsable Batons in NY

Chevusa

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Heard this topic discussed recently, and of course everyone is programmed to automatically think they are illegal because of what there cousin or neighbor or uncle told them one time. However when we started looking into it further, the answer (as some of you may expect) is more complicated than a simple yes/no answer.

The highest court in the state has actually ruled that while billy clubs are indeed illegal, collapsible (ASP) batons do not meet the definition. They go on to explain in detail what the term "billy" in the penal law means and they define it in detail.
In our view, based on the manner in which the statute is set forth, the term "billy" must be strictly interpreted to mean a heavy wooden stick with a handle grip which, from its appearance, is designed to be used to strike an individual and not for other lawful purposes. An object which can be used as a billy but which does not fit the strict definition may still be a prohibited weapon under subdivision (2) of section 265.01 of the Penal Law if there exists the requisite intent to use the object unlawfully against another.(1)
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So for those who do not know, NY describes two types of weapons charges. Those which mere possession of is illegal, and those which are only illegal if they are possessed with intent to use unlawfully against another person. A pocket knife or a fork for example would fit this charge if you used it or threatened someone with it. But otherwise, they are perfectly legal.

So now we can see that the highest court has set a precedent of what a "billy" must be. Let's fast forward to see this precedent apply in real life.
Count one of the indictment charges defendant under Penal Law §265.02(1) with possession of a billy club. This crime is identical to possession of a "billy" as proscribed in Penal Law §265.01(1), with the additional element of a previous criminal conviction. The term 'billy' is [*2]not defined in the Penal Law. Although it is also possible to charge a person, under Penal Law §265.01(2) with possession of "any deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another," that crime, distinct from strict liability for mere possession of a billy, is not charged here.

The US Customs Officer who first noted the device in defendant's car, and who testified in the grand jury proceeding, described the device as a collapsible baton. He said that it had a cylindrical handle with foam covering, and had two internal collapsible sections, each about 6 to 8 inches long, made of steel tubing which could be extended and locked into place with the flick of a wrist. He described it as a striking weapon, which he had seen demonstrated in his training as a federal law enforcement agent. Some such batons are issued to immigration officers as secondary weapons, Hyde testified. He also said that it is a non-lethal weapon intended to disable someone rather than to inflict injury, though it is capable of misuse in such a way as to be lethal in a blow to the head or neck. Collapsible batons are not included in the list of weapons whose mere possession is prohibited in Penal Law § 265.01(2).
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So now we have someone arrested for a collapsable baton in their possession. They did note that if it was possessed with intent to use unlawfully against another it would certainly be illegal (as would a steak knife or a fork), but that is not the case here. Let's see how the court handled it.

This court finds that the collapsible baton seized from defendant does not fall within the Talbert definition of a billy. From a policy standpoint it might make sense for there to be a prohibition against possession of such a device, though the California court in Mercer heard testimony that the device is also used by practitioners of martial arts. Any such declaration must come either from the state legislature, or from an appellate court by way of judicial interpretation of the statute. This court is bound by the appellate holding in Talbert. Since the device was not a billy, its possession was not unlawful, and the first count must be dismissed.
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So there you have it. A precedent set by the appellate court and then a lower court hearing a similar case years later ruling that they are bound by the high court decision and their strict definition, and therefore dismissing the case. Very interesting indeed.

Discuss....




Citations:

(1) People V Talbert
www.leagle.com

PEOPLE v. TALBERT | 107 A.D.2d 842 (1985) | ad2d8421572 | Leagle.com

On the night of August 14 1982 the car in which defendant was riding was stopped by a State trooper for speeding. The driver and...ad2d8421572
www.leagle.com www.leagle.com

(2) People V Phillips
law.justia.com

People v Phillips

People v Phillips - 2005 NY Slip Op 50438 (U)
law.justia.com law.justia.com
 
GOPerfect

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This is yet another rule/law or whatever that I have never paid much attention to.

After my last deployment in 2008, I brought home lots of cool gear and tools.

I have had an Expandable PR-24 in my vehicle ever since. Of all of the expandable batons, the PR24 is my favorite. Amazing what one tool can do.
 
Chevusa

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GOPerfect said:
This is yet another rule/law or whatever that I have never paid much attention to.

After my last deployment in 2008, I brought home lots of cool gear and tools.

I have had an Expandable PR-24 in my vehicle ever since. Of all of the expandable batons, the PR24 is my favorite. Amazing what one tool can do.
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My only thing is if someone wants to carry one they should get some training first. It can turn into a deadly weapon in a second if you don't know where to strike.
 
GOPerfect

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Chevusa said:
My only thing is if someone wants to carry one they should get some training first. It can turn into a deadly weapon in a second if you don't know where to strike.
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100% true. With the PR24, I went through nearly a full day training on just this one.

The straight baton, about 4 hours of real training. These things can absolutely be dangerous.
 
1075tech

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1075tech said:
I broke my leg during straight baton training.
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We were doing an evolution defending against multiple attackers. Using 3/4" PVC with pipe insulation as props. I pivoted to the right to strike the guy coming behind me when the second guy hit me from the left side. My right foot was planted and turned. Tib/fib fracture just above the ankle. First ever ride in an ambulance.
 
Robin

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What about all those gal's parading around with lethal weapons twirling around willynilly, fucking disgusting to comely behavior I say and should be banned and probably already is.
The whole thing is conceptually stupid from the get go, Good God in heaven!
No more concealed carry guy's, from now on you must have your baton hanging in plain sight.
Robin
 
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Ill take a black jack or nightstick over a baton any day. Im to the point of forgetting about whats legal and more about whats effective.
Its pretty clear the goverment does not want you protecting yourself wife kids or others without violating thier rules. Fuck them, Ill do what I got to do , and deal with the penalties after. Ill let them explain why Its better I was beaten by thugs then to defend myself.

My neighbor :( He is now armed)

 
HIghlander

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I remember truck drivers can carry a thumper (another name for a billy club) for checking tires. But believe there is a length limit. Told bastard still hurts when thumped with it.
 
Toecutter

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265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when: (1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or “Kung Fu star”; or (2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another;
 
crunchberry

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Yeah, it may be "legal" but the NYPD will probably still make you spend a night in jail and have to deal with the court headache, even if you will eventually be acquitted of all charges.

I remember the case of a guy have a small pocket knife and the officer repeatedly flicked it open over and over again until it finally opened and he was arrested for having a "gravity assisted knife".

The ‘Gravity Knife’ Led to Thousands of Questionable Arrests. Now It’s Legal.
Black and Latino men had often been charged under New York’s unusual ban on the knives, which are opened with a flick of the wrist.
 
spat

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I have a high lift jack mounted on the back of my jeep.

The handle is a 36" piece of 1" sched 40 black iron pipe. Since the handle doesn't lock into the jack, it is stored in the passenger compartment.

It's a bit too heavy to be ideal, but I am sure it would be quite effective should the need arise.
 
Cooolone

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I carry a collapsing stick made of metal that would allow me to smash a vehicles windows and save occupants in the event of an emergency! Hot sun, overturned vehicle, especially one on fire, etc ... Has also been used to smash pumpkins or while apple picking knocking those prized apples from the top of the tree loose! ;)

These could be used against a person??? I had no idea!?!? Wow...
 
Acer-m14

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Toecutter said:
265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when: (1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or “Kung Fu star”; or (2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another;
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out dated ... chuka stick has been ruled on ...

www.nytimes.com

New Yorkers Have a Constitutional Right to Nunchucks, Judge Rules (Published 2018)

Thanks to an ardent practitioner, the New York State ban on the martial arts weapon, enacted in 1974, has been struck down in court.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
Toecutter

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Acer-m14

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Toecutter said:
The whole law is bullshit, government doesn't get to tell me what I can carry. Provided I'm not hurting anyone with it.
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I agree ,,, and the same with ALL the gun laws and gun control ACTS .. ..

all you need is basic laws on ..

Assault ... don't matter what items was used ..
Murder .. same ... ^^^
ect .... same ^^^^
 
repete

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HIghlander said:
I remember truck drivers can carry a thumper (another name for a billy club) for checking tires. But believe there is a length limit. Told bastard still hurts when thumped with it.
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I have a thumper in my big truck, had for about 15 years and it used to say right on it "Tire Thumper" still sold in truck stop all across America. I might have a collapsible baton in my PU too.
 
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