Bullet Construction: Hunting vs Match?

camper4lyfe said:

And this is why I crated this thread. There's SO much info and it very quickly gets overwhelming and confusing.

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But....you don't reload, so much of it is useless to you.

The M16 and it's variants have been around for 60 years and dropped many millions of thin skinned game with 55 grain ball ammo.
Ball ammo is cheap, accurate and it works.
SJC

Shoots100 said:

The M16 and it's variants have been around for 60 years and dropped many millions of thin skinned game with 55 grain ball ammo.
Ball ammo is cheap, accurate and it works.
SJC

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"Killing" is making a hole for Blood to escape from a sealed system...Ball Ammo has done it since the the gun was invented...."Hunting" ammunition just digs a nastier, larger hole to make 'em bleed out quicker.

Both get the job done with kinetic energy transfer and cavitation.
Ball cost's a lot less so more trigger time to become more proficient with it.
SJC

I see none of you have experience a 55 grwin soft point out of a 22" barrel bolt gun going through the bone of both shoulders on a doe..


You want a soft point in the 69-75 grain range for a 1:8. Make sure it's for game and not varmit(thin jacket). 55 grain will work as long as it's sp, but I like a little more weight . I would also limit my shots to 150 yard and in, maybe even closer if you're using a 16" barrel. For hunting I would prefer a 20" or longer

Vapor said:

I see none of you have experience a 55 grwin soft point out of a 22" barrel bolt gun going through the bone of both shoulders on a doe..


You want a soft point in the 69-75 grain range for a 1:8. Make sure it's for game and not varmit(thin jacket). 55 grain will work as long as it's sp, but I like a little more weight . I would also limit my shots to 150 yard and in, maybe even closer if you're using a 16" barrel. For hunting I would prefer a 20" or longer

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I took two Deer at separate times approximately the same place ~150yds using a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle and Remington 55gr. Cor-Lok bullets with a shot to the base of the skull: Clean, Dead right there kills...placement is more important than damn near anything else.

Vapor said:

I see none of you have experience a 55 grwin soft point out of a 22" barrel bolt gun going through the bone of both shoulders on a doe..


You want a soft point in the 69-75 grain range for a 1:8. Make sure it's for game and not varmit(thin jacket). 55 grain will work as long as it's sp, but I like a little more weight . I would also limit my shots to 150 yard and in, maybe even closer if you're using a 16" barrel. For hunting I would prefer a 20" or longer

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I have no need for a .223, but have friends that have taken a lot of deer with ball ammo and the deer never knew the difference.
One pill to the noggin and it's lights out with no meat damage.
SJC

I get what y'all are saying, but you can kill almost anything with a . 22 to the head. (Save maybe the largest bears).


I'm trying to point out that . 223 can still work in the boiler too.

Another option, if you're using a scary black gun, is to just change out your upper for a larger caliber. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using .223 or maybe loading to 5.56 pressure levels. It's just that it's a simple and inexpensive swap and opens up a lot more choices for hunting ammo. That's just one of the great things about America's Rifle, modularity. Just a thought

Holland said:

Another option, if you're using a scary black gun, is to just change out your upper for a larger caliber. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using .223 or maybe loading to 5.56 pressure levels. It's just that it's a simple and inexpensive swap and opens up a lot more choices for hunting ammo. That's just one of the great things about America's Rifle, modularity. Just a thought

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Off the top of my head, I've got 'em in 18 different calibers if you include the 10's too.

This forum threat on Rokslide linked below is a wealth of information about hunting with .223/5.56. People posting pictures of very large game taken with the cartridge and the loads/ammo they used to take said game. The 77gr Sierra Tipped Matchking seems very well regarded, as does the 75gr ELDM among match bullets. Hornady has a 75gr Critical Defense that should do well based on gel tests. Federal Fusion, Hornady CSX. I've spoken to several people who have personally used .223 on deer and have heard of a few different ammos used. I've used .300 Blackout to take 2 deer and a coyote, which really isn't any more powerful a cartridge and it worked as well as anything else I've used.

camper4lyfe said:

I haven’t ruled out that option, but in pricing it out, I can buy a bolt gun in 6.5 creedmore for less (I may still do that). I’m really just trying to weigh my options at this point.

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6.5CM was the greatest development in sporting ammunition in a Century until suddenly something a little bit better came along...The Comic-Book Gun Writers are second guessing it, but in reality it does just fine.except for Bear, Moose, Elk, etc, even these are a possibility with a proper shot.
Since the unjustified dismissal of the 6.5 the same way .40 S&W was shunned, prices on Rifles has come down.

Yes you can get a cheap bolt gun, but you can get a nice upper in say 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 350 Legend among others that would only require a new complete upper and bolt along with possibly a magazine. The versatility and adaptability is something to consider. Obviously you're .223 upper is just a simple swap back and forth.The pricing seems to have come down quite a bit since my last build. Or of course you can get a dedicated bolt gun hunting rifle. I'm certainly not going to discourage it. Personally 6.5 PRC piques my interest, but I wouldn't discount the classics like .308 or .270. Both excellent hunting cartridges. I'm a fan of the new Browning X-Bolts. They run the gamut in features and pricing. Something for everyone but with a great action at the heart of it

Xae289 said:

This forum threat on Rokslide linked below is a wealth of information about hunting with .223/5.56. People posting pictures of very large game taken with the cartridge and the loads/ammo they used to take said game. The 77gr Sierra Tipped Matchking seems very well regarded, as does the 75gr ELDM among match bullets. Hornady has a 75gr Critical Defense that should do well based on gel tests. Federal Fusion, Hornady CSX. I've spoken to several people who have personally used .223 on deer and have heard of a few different ammos used. I've used .300 Blackout to take 2 deer and a coyote, which really isn't any more powerful a cartridge and it worked as well as anything else I've used.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

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Couldn't disagree more, and if you asked the tech people at Sierra and Hornady, they would tell you the same thing. Sierra makes a Tipped Matchking and a very similar, but differently constructed Tipped Gameking. Gamekings are HUNTING bullets. Matchkings are for putting holes in PAPER TARGETS. In the same way, Hornady makes a ELDM and a ELDX. ELDM are MATCH bullets while the similar but differently constructed ELDX are HUNTING bullets. All one has to do is to look at the sectional designs to see the difference. Hunting bullets are designed with terminal performance in mind. That being, expansion. Match bullets are purely designed with flight characteristics in mind. Terminal performance is not a consideration at all. Therefore, an ethical hunter would choose a bullet designed for HUNTING.


In Sierra's realm of hunting bullets you will find bullets for different game. Blitzkings are hunting bullets, but designed for varmints. They virtually explode on contact. Using one on a large animal would not perform well. It would fail to penetrate deep into the vitals. Gamekings are for larger animals. Within the Gameking line there are bullets that are even more heavily constructed and designed for magnum cartridges. Hornady has similar offerings, as do all other major bullet manufacturers such as Nosler, Speer and Barnes to name a few. Just read the bullet descriptions in your reloading manuals. They describe the intended use and benefits of each bullet design.

Using a match bullet for big game is unethical as well as unwise due to the unreliable terminal ballistics.

Tisto said:

Couldn't disagree more, and if you asked the tech people at Sierra and Hornady, they would tell you the same thing. Sierra makes a Tipped Matchking and a very similar, but differently constructed Tipped Gameking. Gamekings are HUNTING bullets. Matchkings are for putting holes in PAPER TARGETS. In the same way, Hornady makes a ELDM and a ELDX. ELDM are MATCH bullets while the similar but differently constructed ELDX are HUNTING bullets. All one has to do is to look at the sectional designs to see the difference. Hunting bullets are designed with terminal performance in mind. That being, expansion. Match bullets are purely designed with flight characteristics in mind. Terminal performance is not a consideration at all. Therefore, an ethical hunter would choose a bullet designed for HUNTING.


In Sierra's realm of hunting bullets you will find bullets for different game. Blitzkings are hunting bullets, but designed for varmints. They virtually explode on contact. Using one on a large animal would not perform well. It would fail to penetrate deep into the vitals. Gamekings are for larger animals. Within the Gameking line there are bullets that are even more heavily constructed and designed for magnum cartridges. Hornady has similar offerings, as do all other major bullet manufacturers such as Nosler, Speer and Barnes to name a few. Just read the bullet descriptions in your reloading manuals. They describe the intended use and benefits of each bullet design.

Using a match bullet for big game is unethical as well as unwise due to the unreliable terminal ballistics.

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Feel free to disagree with the messenger, but if you take time to read through that forum thread, you'll see the results of people claiming to use the Tipped Matchking (and other .223 bullets including the ELDM) to great effect on deer and even much bigger game like bears, elk and moose. Like I said, I don't have first-hand experience, but I have seen the results of the TMK on deer from a fellow hunter.

I also believe that all those experiences on that thread and the hunter I know aren't part of some big hoax because I have experience with a similar bullet. I used a 110 gr .308 cal VMax bullet out of a .300 Blackout to take a deer. If you don't know the VMax, it's a thin-jacketed, tipped varmint bullet, 110gr being very light for caliber and having low sectional density. Out of a 16" .300 Blackout with a near-max load of H110, it did right about 2400 fps at the muzzle, not going anywhere near as fast as a .308 Win would send it. It did a fantastic job on a big doe at 30-40 yards, in through a rib, making a mess out of the internals, exiting out the opposite ribcage with a big hole, and dropping the deer after a quick hop. If you look at cross-sections of the VMax, its jacket thickness and the gap between the tip and lead are almost identical to tipped match bullets like the Sierra TMK or Hornady ELDM. I'd have even more confidence in those tipped match bullets since their higher sectional densities make them more likely to exit than a light bullet like the VMax.

The point is, whether advertised as match bullets or not, thin-jacketed tipped bullets seem to do a very good job of destroying a lot of tissue if placed into the vitals. What I don't have confidence in are open-tip or hollow-point match bullets. A couple of hunting buddies of mine hunted with those because one of them was a police sniper and was issued that style. Without a tip to initiate expansion (which the polymer tip does even if it's advertised as a match bullet), an open-tipped match bullet could, and often does, fragment or tumble, causing plenty of internal damage. But sometimes it doesn't do either and instead ice-picks through, causing minimal damage and leading to tracking and follow-up shots. After that happened twice and led to two pain-in-the-ass recoveries including one where we saw the inconsistency between one wound and the follow-up, I convinced one of the guys to switch back to a traditional .308 hunting bullet.

I haven't used a tipped match bullet to take any game, but I plan to try out the .223 77gr TMK before coyote season is over. If my results line up with the terminal ballistics claims I've heard and read about, maybe I'll use it next deer season.

Xae289 said:

Feel free to disagree with the messenger, but if you take time to read through that forum thread, you'll see the results of people claiming to use the Tipped Matchking (and other .223 bullets including the ELDM) to great effect on deer and even much bigger game like bears, elk and moose. Like I said, I don't have first-hand experience, but I have seen the results of the TMK on deer from a fellow hunter.

I also believe that all those experiences on that thread and the hunter I know aren't part of some big hoax because I have experience with a similar bullet. I used a 110 gr .308 cal VMax bullet out of a .300 Blackout to take a deer. If you don't know the VMax, it's a thin-jacketed, tipped varmint bullet, 110gr being very light for caliber and having low sectional density. Out of a 16" .300 Blackout with a near-max load of H110, it did right about 2400 fps at the muzzle, not going anywhere near as fast as a .308 Win would send it. It did a fantastic job on a big doe at 30-40 yards, in through a rib, making a mess out of the internals, exiting out the opposite ribcage with a big hole, and dropping the deer after a quick hop. If you look at cross-sections of the VMax, its jacket thickness and the gap between the tip and lead are almost identical to tipped match bullets like the Sierra TMK or Hornady ELDM. I'd have even more confidence in those tipped match bullets since their higher sectional densities make them more likely to exit than a light bullet like the VMax.

The point is, whether advertised as match bullets or not, thin-jacketed tipped bullets seem to do a very good job of destroying a lot of tissue if placed into the vitals. What I don't have confidence in are open-tip or hollow-point match bullets. A couple of hunting buddies of mine hunted with those because one of them was a police sniper and was issued that style. Without a tip to initiate expansion (which the polymer tip does even if it's advertised as a match bullet), an open-tipped match bullet could, and often does, fragment or tumble, causing plenty of internal damage. But sometimes it doesn't do either and instead ice-picks through, causing minimal damage and leading to tracking and follow-up shots. After that happened twice and led to two pain-in-the-ass recoveries including one where we saw the inconsistency between one wound and the follow-up, I convinced one of the guys to switch back to a traditional .308 hunting bullet.

I haven't used a tipped match bullet to take any game, but I plan to try out the .223 77gr TMK before coyote season is over. If my results line up with the terminal ballistics claims I've heard and read about, maybe I'll use it next deer season.

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Someone needs to get in touch with the ballistic experts and developers at Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, Speer, Barnes, Lehigh, and every other bullet manufacturer and tell them that they're wasting their time developing bullets for different purposes, since target bullets are all anyone needs.

Sorry, but a few nitwits on some unknown forum will not sell me on the idea that bullets designed solely for punching holes in paper are just as good for hunting as the bullets designed for hunting. Nor will they get me to agree with the idea that varmint bullets should be used for big game. That's just retarded.

Tisto said:

Someone needs to get in touch with the ballistic experts and developers at Sierra, Hornady, Nosler, Speer, Barnes, Lehigh, and every other bullet manufacturer and tell them that they're wasting their time developing bullets for different purposes, since target bullets are all anyone needs.

Sorry, but a few nitwits on some unknown forum will not sell me on the idea that bullets designed solely for punching holes in paper are just as good for hunting as the bullets designed for hunting. Nor will they get me to agree with the idea that varmint bullets should be used for big game. That's just retarded.

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Fair objection and sorry for accidentally burying the lead thinking more people knew they also market these tipped match bullets to law enforcement. These bullets are in fact not designed solely for punching holes in paper. Ammo companies conduct gel tests on these bullets, including barrier penetration tests. They are designed to be very lethal on human targets, including humans wearing heavy clothing, hiding behind walls, metal doors, and angled auto glass. Hornady publishes a detailed guide.

Here's an example with Hornady's 6mm ARC LE load using a 106gr ELDM:


The bare gelatin and heavy clothing tests are probably the most informative for hunters who are unlikely to shoot a deer through steel plates or auto-glass. But even those have value to debunk the idea that those bullets would somehow disintegrate and fail to penetrate if they hit bone. With match bullets, they also have LE loads using the 147gr ELDM in 6.5 Creedmoor, the 155gr and 168gr ELDM in .308, the 168gr AMax in .308, and the 178gr ELDM in .300 Win Mag. Here's the .300 Win Mag gel results, the 6.5 and .308 results obviously fall somewhere between the 6mm and .300WM results:


My speculation is that they don't market tipped match bullets as hunting bullets primarily so that the libtard media doesn't create false outrage by accusing LE of using "hunting" bullets to "hunt" human beings. The optics and PR probably wouldn't be great.

As for varmint bullets, gel tests on the .300 Blackout 110gr VMax is what got me to try that bullet on a deer out of a .300 Blackout. It was well before I saw Hornady's official test, but several gel tests on YouTube had results were all pretty identical to this one below. My one real world result was excellent, dropping the deer quickly with a full pass-through on a broadside shot behind the shoulder. I wouldn't try it with just any Varmint bullet though.



If you're interested in the full results, here's the link to access the guide from Hornady:

camper4lyfe said:

I want to use my .223 to deer hunt, and I'm having a really hard time sorting out what's what, and what's ok to use and what's not.

The barrel has a 1:8 twist, which as gest I can tell, I can use up to ~80 grain bullets (and I want to go with the heaviest bullet I can for energy reasons). I'm currently looking for something in the 74-77gr range because they seem to be more readily available, but the issue I'm finding is that a large majority of the heavier rounds are match rounds, not hunting rounds. In my limited research, the difference between match and hunting rounds is related to how the bullet performs when it hits its target. Match tends to fragment while hunting rounds hold together and mushroom.

That said, can anyone help me sort out what I should be looking for, in a way a 10 year old might understand? The options and variations available are mind boggling, and the more I look, the more confused I get.

Edit: I'm looking for off the shelf ammo, not just bullets for reloading.

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Imagine a match bullet is a glass cup. It breaks apart. A hunting bullet is a ball of clay. It flattens but stays together.

Vapor said:

I see none of you have experience a 55 grwin soft point out of a 22" barrel bolt gun going through the bone of both shoulders on a doe..


You want a soft point in the 69-75 grain range for a 1:8. Make sure it's for game and not varmit(thin jacket). 55 grain will work as long as it's sp, but I like a little more weight . I would also limit my shots to 150 yard and in, maybe even closer if you're using a 16" barrel. For hunting I would prefer a 20" or longer

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When times were a lot tougher for us I used a Ruger Ranch Rifle in .223 firing 55gr. Remington Cor-lok and dropped two Deer (different times) in the same 150yds. spot with one shot to the base of the skull...prior to that I used a Garand with M2 Ball with a one shot kill at 200yds. There's a lot of dead men in the ground from Ball ammo, there's also a lot that survived..."Hunting" ammunition was designed to do more terminal damage, and the "Varmint" rounds are explosive on impact: both are designed to make more ethical kills, cover up poor shots, and make the manufacturer more money.
Given the cost of a Guided Hunt/Safari most will elect to buy the absolute best they can find...I would.

tom_89 said:

Imagine a match bullet is a glass cup. It breaks apart. A hunting bullet is a ball of clay. It flattens but stays together.

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I gave up trying to convince people that certain types of bullets were an inappropriate selection for the ethical taking of big game. Those that are convinced that a varmint bullet or a FMJ is a good choice for deer or bear are just ignorant in my opinion and cannot or will not understand why. I don't have the time, patience, or crayons necessary to make them understand. They would not, however, be welcome to hunt with me.

Although some ammunition manufacturers market one type of bullet construction for an alternative use, that does not mean that the bullet design is appropriate for similar but different uses. Case in point, Hornady markets a .308 Win 110gr V-Max bullet in their TAP line - a line of ammunition for police use, typically for SWAT/ Sniper applications. As this use goes, it truly is an effective application. However, one must accept and realize that humans are NOT equivelent to most big game animals. Humans do not posses the strength, stamina, or heartiness of wild animals. Want proof ? Kick a random person in the shins as hard as you can. That person will be on the ground in no time, and there will be no fight response from them. Now do that to a black bear. See what happens. If you live, when you get out of the hospital you can tell me what you learned. Humans are thin skinned, lightly boned creatures with a VERY low threshold for pain and injury, and they do not survive injuries that many wild animals would.

Bullet construction should be one of the first criteria when considering what is appropriate for your application. Then accuracy of the load in question. Everything after those two is minor. I could see a scenario where one bullet might be a slightly less perfect choice than another but that the lesser choice provides superb accuracy and therefore might be the better overall choice, but as a rule bullet construction should be the deciding feature for the selection of ammunition for a particular use.

Bullets designed for target use are designed with only one thing in mind - in flight ballistics. Nothing else. Their use should be limited to punching holes in paper. Varmint bullets are designed with terminal ballistics as well as in flight ballistics in mind in order to hit small targets at long distances, with rapid, violent and complete expansion/explosion but will fail to provide the necessary deep penetration to reach the vitals in a large animal with thick bones, exceptional muscle mass, and heavy skin. Even typical large game hunting bullets are divided into categories for their appropriate use. Dangerous game bullets for something like rhinos are not the same as those used for large game such as elk.

To those of you that wish to take my analysis personally, don't. This is not a reflection on you. I'm not attempting to single out anyone in particular.

Nosler partitions
Federal fusion
Speer makes a 70 grainer that will work in a 12 twist 223 and I have used it in a 14 twist 22-250

Anybody done any reading on the new 6.5 ammo? Supposed to put it 100' faster than the 6.5 prc.