2A Lawsuits and their progress we have here in NY

[Shadow2]

You have the Federal Rules, then the Local Rules, then the Judge's Rules and the ECF Clerks rules. So it is easy to run afoul of one of these rules. Usually not fatal to the case, but causes delays. Especially easy if you are concerned with the substance of the case and don't pay meticulous attention to all the rules. Also some times they are ambiguous and contradictory.

The plaintiffs in Frey case have certainly put themselves at risk. The cases, at least prior to Bruen, said a state could not prohibit carry but could regulate it. If you could carry open, didn't have a right to carry concealed. If you could carry concealed, had no right to carry open. It would not surprise me if they are arrested by the end of next week. God bless them. They are going where I would fear to go.

They put them selves at risk of what? Being arrested for what? They are questioning the constitutionality of open carry being a felony. In PA its 100% legal to carry open without a permit, the state requires a permit to carry concealed. With Bruen and applying strict scrutiny the one or the other standard may no longer hold water. The more cases the better.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Judge Suddaby has already given his opinion on the constitutional status of the law. He knows this case will be appealed to the Second Circuit and then the Supreme Court. He and his law clerks are carefully crafting the decision to hold up on appeal. I think we will have a decision by the end of Friday.

Hey @RBean , it is great having you here! As always, thanks for the insight.

 

[livingston]

Do you think NYS would appeal to the supremes? I think they’re afraid if that, right?

Paloma said it could go all the way in a previous interview.

 

[spat]

Lmfao cant believe you are all still talking about this. We got punished. Get over it. We will NEVER have less infringements; only more. Hochul said flat out she is ready to go back to muskets. And you guys thought she was bluffing!

The more noise we make, the more punishment will come down from the state. Period.

Then make enough noise that she goes so far that people will no longer accept it.

You do not back down on this, ever.

 

[spat]

Nope, sorry. Study your history. Has never happened, will never happen.

Kinda happened here around 1776.

Kinda happened in France in 1789 too. That last one didn't work out too well for the tyrants.

 

[US RIFLE M1A]

A member here is advocating backing down due to increased punishment from the state.

With due respect, I say... bullshit.

In another thread I posted that the scandal with Bruen is not as it seems. It has nothing to do with what they say it has to do with, which is an HR issue. Hochul is treating it as if Bruen has bodies stored in his office freezer.

Someone here suggested it was a larger power play, perhaps it is.

My opinion is that the lawsuit situation as we have been following has at least something to do with it. Cracks are beginning to show. Hochul by herself is not a powerful person with any significant good-old-boy contacts. She is a nobody who has attained a position of power through no qualities of her own, and has no idea how to either use that power effectively or how not to make political waves..

These lawsuits are having the effect of shining too much light on her and by extension, those who stand to gain by issues way more important than the CCIA.

The people who truly stand to gain in this state ($$$) don't give a shit about restricting concealed carry. She has made some downstate legislators happy, but in New York, except for the three people in the smoky room, the legislature is a rubber stamp. The real power is in awarding contracts and giving state money to 'improvement zones' and such. These people do not like controversy of any sort.

I could be completely wrong, we will probably never know. What I do know is that the heat needs to be turned up to 11 on all Second Amendment issues no matter the geographic location of the infringement or the details of such. In other words, we should be fighting not for concealed carry in the Adirondacks but for open carry in Times Square.

EDIT TO ADD: If I were a fiction writer, I would have a scene in the novel in which Bruen was approached back-channel by the ($$$) oligarchs and told to take some hits as far as the lawsuits were concerned, to get the 2A community to feel they won a few and back down a bit. When you are they type of person who deals with mostly clean money mixed in with some dirty money, as NY is famous for, you DO NOT NEED controversy. This is the way business is done in NY, and Hochul, besides being an autocrat (rule by one person) is also an idealogue who has recruited the wrong people (downstate politicians) as friends. Bruen approached her and told her to calm down on 2A issues, and she is lashing out and wants his scalp same as if he outright betrayed her. (The above paragraph is just the rambling of someone who taught creative writing)

 

[Saltwater60]

They put them selves at risk of what? Being arrested for what? They are questioning the constitutionality of open carry being a felony. In PA its 100% legal to carry open without a permit, the state requires a permit to carry concealed. With Bruen and applying strict scrutiny the one or the other standard may no longer hold water. The more cases the better.

Except they aren’t in PA and it’s illegal in NYS at least for now. I’m specifically talking about carrying in certain areas and open carry is another story. He will be arrested for sure and charged with a felony. He will have many rights stripped from him. We will see what happens

 

[Jchrisls]

Except they aren’t in PA and it’s illegal in NYS at least for now. I’m specifically talking about carrying in certain areas and open carry is another story. He will be arrested for sure and charged with a felony. He will have many rights stripped from him. We will see what happens

I haven't found where open carry is illegal in NY in a statue. Possession of a handgun without a permit is illegal, and on said permit that permit is concealed. IMO its a challenge of definition, which also happens to challenge the CCIA.

 

[spat]

Except they aren’t in PA and it’s illegal in NYS at least for now. I’m specifically talking about carrying in certain areas and open carry is another story. He will be arrested for sure and charged with a felony. He will have many rights stripped from him. We will see what happens

What would he be charged with for open carrying ?


The sensitive zones thing is going to go away evetually I think. It’s too much of an overreach for even moderately leftist judges.

Imagine trying to apply "sensitive areas" that cover most of the state to speech or worship.

 

[spat]

I haven't found where open carry is illegal in NY in a statue. Possession of a handgun without a permit is illegal, and on said permit that permit is concealed. IMO its a challenge of definition, which also happens to challenge the CCIA.

The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted.

It does not say "to have only while carrying concealed" otherwise you would be in violation anytime the gun wasn't concealed on your person (i.e. if it was in your safe at home).

A possession only permit would say "to have" and neglect the "carry concealed" part.

That's essentially the difference between a restricted permit and a full carry.

 

[That_FNG]

Except they aren’t in PA and it’s illegal in NYS at least for now. I’m specifically talking about carrying in certain areas and open carry is another story. He will be arrested for sure and charged with a felony. He will have many rights stripped from him. We will see what happens

If open carry is illegal in nys what specific sections of the law allow exemptions for armed security and law enforcement to open carry? What specific sections allow exemptions for people during hunting season to open carry while hunting?

 

[byron]

The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted.

It does not say "to have only while carrying concealed" otherwise you would be in violation anytime the gun wasn't concealed on your person (i.e. if it was in your safe at home).

A possession only permit would say "to have" and neglect the "carry concealed" part.

That's essentially the difference between a restricted permit and a full carry.

The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted. on my permit it says license to carry pistol is hereby granted to. nowhere on it says concealed

 

[Saltwater60]

I haven't found where open carry is illegal in NY in a statue. Possession of a handgun without a permit is illegal, and on said permit that permit is concealed. IMO its a challenge of definition, which also happens to challenge the CCIA.

Correct. That’s why I said open carrying is another story. I was specifically speaking about them open carrying in sensitive places or restricted places. The open carrying on them is to push the envelope to see if they get charged with something related and then it’s so they are arrested to hopefully speed up the challenge to the sensitive locations.
I agree with your statement above that open carrying is t illegal or specifically prohibited anywhere I can find in the law.

 

[Saltwater60]

If open carry is illegal in nys what specific sections of the law allow exemptions for armed security and law enforcement to open carry? What specific sections allow exemptions for people during hunting season to open carry while hunting?

I didn’t say it was illegal hence why I said open carrying is another story and I’m specifically speaking to carrying a gun in certain areas.
To all I’m not saying open carrying is illegal. Will the cops be called and will it create a problem in some areas and some situations yes, but can you be charged no.

 

[Saltwater60]

The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted. on my permit it says license to carry pistol is hereby granted to. nowhere on it says concealed

Same here. Mine doesn’t say anywhere concealed carry.
This is the exact reason why all permits need to go away in all states. It’s too confusing. Some states you need nothing for either open or concealed, some states you need permit for possession, some states you only need a permit to concealed carry. I’m sure there are a few other rules or situations I’m missing, but those are the most common.
I hope that’s what happens with one of these laws. Some one needs to challenge that we need a permit and that we can’t carry to another state in many cases. We don’t need a new law passed saying national carry is allowed anymore since it wasn’t restricted in history, text, or tradition.

 

[Egret-II]

Same here. Mine doesn’t say anywhere concealed carry.
This is the exact reason why all permits need to go away in all states. It’s too confusing. Some states you need nothing for either open or concealed, some states you need permit for possession, some states you only need a permit to concealed carry. I’m sure there are a few other rules or situations I’m missing, but those are the most common.
I hope that’s what happens with one of these laws. Some one needs to challenge that we need a permit and that we can’t carry to another state in many cases. We don’t need a new law passed saying national carry is allowed anymore since it wasn’t restricted in history, text, or tradition.

When all cops decide NOT to arrest anybody for conceal carry, all these stupid laws and permits will go away. You DONT need permission from the goverment to exercise your Second Amendment right. Cops can't just say: " that's the law and I'm just doing my job. " then why they have to endforce unconstitutional laws and NOT the CONSTITUTION?

 

[Jchrisls]

Same here. Mine doesn’t say anywhere concealed carry.
This is the exact reason why all permits need to go away in all states. It’s too confusing. Some states you need nothing for either open or concealed, some states you need permit for possession, some states you only need a permit to concealed carry. I’m sure there are a few other rules or situations I’m missing, but those are the most common.
I hope that’s what happens with one of these laws. Some one needs to challenge that we need a permit and that we can’t carry to another state in many cases. We don’t need a new law passed saying national carry is allowed anymore since it wasn’t restricted in history, text, or tradition.

Understood. btw- a constitutional lawyer stated its much more difficult to repeal a law based on criminal charges than civil- see the 4 boxes diner.

FYI-Mine does specifically say "to carry concealed " but open carry isn't prohibited in law.

 

[Egret-II]

Understood. btw- a constitutional lawyer stated its much more difficult to repeal a law based on criminal charges than civil- see the 4 boxes diner.

FYI-Mine does specifically say "to carry concealed " but open carry isn't prohibited in law.

Westchester license says. To posses and carry. It doesnt say concealed anywhere. So technically you can open carry if you wanted to.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

The permit says "to have" and "to carry concealed". They are 2 separate things that are granted.

It does not say "to have only while carrying concealed" otherwise you would be in violation anytime the gun wasn't concealed on your person (i.e. if it was in your safe at home).

A possession only permit would say "to have" and neglect the "carry concealed" part.

That's essentially the difference between a restricted permit and a full carry.

My permit from Erie County includes the following statements only:

On the front:

"STATE OF NEW YORK ERIE COUNTY
License to carry pistol is hereby granted
UNRESTRICTED"

On the back:

"THIS LICENSE IS ISSUED WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS
1. It is revocable at any time. 2. If issued outside New York City, not valid to carry a weapon in New York
City unless approved by the police commissioner of that city."

It is simply ridiculous that we have all of these different rules across the state, and that we are treated as second class citizens who cannot legally carry across the entire state. If I am not mistaken, I recall that the Frey lawsuit is also attacking that issue? I long for the day when we can all legally carry throughout the entire state, - and cram it up their asses big time.

 

[Saltwater60]

When all cops decide NOT to arrest anybody for conceal carry, all these stupid laws and permits will go away. You DONT need permission from the goverment to exercise your Second Amendment right. Cops can't just say: " that's the law and I'm just doing my job. " then why they have to endforce unconstitutional laws and NOT the CONSTITUTION?

And the same could be said when the politicians stop passing unconstitutional laws, but I’d say neither one will happen for the foreseeable future. I’d say there are more cops “doing their job” today than two years ago regarding the 2A. The good cops that could or would look the other way on stupid shit are ending and retiring. The BLM a riots and hostility towards cops on behalf the liberals is the cause and the plan.

 

[Saltwater60]

My permit from Erie County includes the following statements only:

On the front:

"STATE OF NEW YORK ERIE COUNTY
License to carry pistol is hereby granted
UNRESTRICTED"

On the back:

"THIS LICENSE IS ISSUED WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS
1. It is revocable at any time. 2. If issued outside New York City, not valid to carry a weapon in New York
City unless approved by the police commissioner of that city."

It is simply ridiculous that we have all of these different rules across the state, and that we are treated as second class citizens who cannot legally carry across the entire state. If I am not mistaken, I recall that the Frey lawsuit is also attacking that issue? I long for the day when we can all legally carry throughout the entire state, - and cram it up their asses big time.

Now expand that to the country and it’s even different county by count in many areas. This is dizzying. I do have to say that if the Supreme Court ruling is respected we will not need separate permits or possibly any permit to have, posses, or carry a firearm.

 

[Egret-II]

Now expand that to the country and it’s even different county by count in many areas. This is dizzying. I do have to say that if the Supreme Court ruling is respected we will not need separate permits or possibly any permit to have, posses, or carry a firearm.

The part of the law that says you need a license"To posses" needs to be challenged. That's preventing many of us from teaching friends how to shoot or from convincing those, who are afraid of guns, that guns aren't that bad. I think they put that part there for that same reason.

 

[Saltwater60]

The part of the law that says you need a license"To posses" needs to be challenged. That's preventing many of us from teaching friends how to shoot or from convincing those, who are afraid of guns, that guns aren't that bad. I think they put that part there for that same reason.

I’ll add the permit by a different state needs to be challenged as well. Many people traveled freely in the USA with all sorts of guns and never needed special permission.

 

[Egret-II]

I’ll add the permit by a different state needs to be challenged as well. Many people traveled freely in the USA with all sorts of guns and never needed special permission.

I don't remember not being able to drive in PA or any other state because my driver license is from NY. And driver licensed are a privilege. Not a right.

How do you sue the state, and how much would it cost? I'm seriously thinking about suing NY for permit to posses and my permit from NYS not being valid in NYC.

 

[Saltwater60]

I don't remember not being able to drive in PA or any other state because my driver license is from NY. And driver licensed are a privilege. Not a right.

How do you sue the state, and how much would it cost? I'm seriously thinking about suing NY for permit to posses and my permit from NYS not being valid in NYC.

It would be a drop in the bucket but I’m sure many of us would pitch in some bucks here for support. I commend anyone who does anything like this because it just has to be a huge hassle.
Also I would wait for the dust to settle a bit because you don’t know what will come out of the current suits.
The Supreme Court just kicked the Massachusetts law back down to the lower courts and the permitting scheme was on that suit.

 

[FRB]

New case filed in SDNY today. Goldstein v. Hochul. This is a challenge to the "place of worship or religious observation" sensitive location ban.

Link to complaint
Link to docket via CourtListener

Is that this one: Churches File Suit Challenging State Gun Law

 

[Glock_USA]

TRO HAS BEEN ISSUED

 

[Jchrisls]

TRO HAS BEEN ISSUED

Post where this has been affirmed as I can't find anything. Facts matter.....and in this A LOT

 

[Glock_USA]

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nynd.134829/gov.uscourts.nynd.134829.27.0_1.pdf

 

[m1_ping]

Partial TRO, does not take effect for 3 business days to give time for the state to appeal.