ExMember_4526
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Trade offs between 50 Meter & 100 Meter zeros on various barrel lengths (10.5 - 16.1”) on .223-5.56 systems at average medium HD distances?
50 & 100 Meter Zeroing trade offs for average medium HD distances on 5.56 systems
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ExMember_4526
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Disclaimer:
All system set ups discussed are presumed to be compliant, owned by LE, used in properties out of state or just plain theoretical knowledge
All system set ups discussed are presumed to be compliant, owned by LE, used in properties out of state or just plain theoretical knowledge
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If your rifle is just for within 100 yards, the 100 yard zero shoots flatter than a 50 yard zero within those 100 yards. If you want it to be more versatile and shoot further, the 50 yard zero is better but it will be a few inches high within those first 150 yards.
A shorter barrel just makes the distance less but the arch is the same.
A shorter barrel just makes the distance less but the arch is the same.
BMF JK
.44 mag
Shawn Ryan has a good video that shows various zeros and the point of impact at various distances .
ExMember_4526
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I’m familiar with that video. Thanks!
Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics), as well as others have some decent videos on this topic.
I like hearing more elaboration within the context of one’s personal experience.
Molan (M4 Carbine Forum) and Jack Leuba (KAC) have some very decent perspectives. If I get their permission, I’ll post it here as a copy/paste.
Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics), as well as others have some decent videos on this topic.
I like hearing more elaboration within the context of one’s personal experience.
Molan (M4 Carbine Forum) and Jack Leuba (KAC) have some very decent perspectives. If I get their permission, I’ll post it here as a copy/paste.
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For HD range it really doesn't even matter, your 10 yard and in offset will be pretty consistent with zeros out to 100 yards. Also keep in mind that 55gr 5.56/223 is very, very flat out to 300 yards.
I use a 50/200 zero for my red dot gun since it keeps my fairly close POI wise from 25-100 yards and I use a 100 yard zero for my scoped 77gr gun.
I use a 50/200 zero for my red dot gun since it keeps my fairly close POI wise from 25-100 yards and I use a 100 yard zero for my scoped 77gr gun.
stuckhere
9mm
Yes, great video and visual representation. 35-50yd has always made the most sense to me for an intermediate caliber carbine.
My home defense guns are zeroed (even the Designated HD rifles) at 10 yards. That is the longest shot in my house that I could take. Rifles for general use are zeroed at 100 yards, Rifles for challenges are zeroed at challenge distance. Pistols are zeroed for 10 yards with the knowledge of where the hits land at 25 yards.
The term commonly used is come ups (number of elevation clicks needed to hit the center of a target). I don't think there is much difference between 50 and 100 meters.
spat
.950 JDJ
100 yards for everything but pistols for me.
Easier to be consistent than to try to remember what role you had planned for something when you last had it out of the safe.
If you are in a home defense situation where an inch difference in the elevation of the POI is important, a lot more has gone wrong than picking the wrong zero on the rifle.
Easier to be consistent than to try to remember what role you had planned for something when you last had it out of the safe.
If you are in a home defense situation where an inch difference in the elevation of the POI is important, a lot more has gone wrong than picking the wrong zero on the rifle.
I do 100 for all hunting rifles and 50 for all self-defense rifles. My days of possibly being on base defense covering a lane with shots to 300 meters or more are long done. Any self-defense/combat will be up-close.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
What distance you zero at doesnt matter.
What matters is what type of sights and /or optics you have and how essy is for you to use them and naturally adquire the target and know where the impact is going to be, including at distances below or above the line of sight.
There are sight systems specifically desigmed for short distance fast adquisition and with stadia design that is essy to compensate for the differnces.
For hd one could use a rifle with no sights and still group pretty decently given a reference point like you do when you point with a shotgun.
But there are simple coarse open sights thst will do that very effictevely and beyond.
I would imagine that with a modern rifle one would like to sight a system and see how it would group at 50, 100 etc... yards and then come down the 4 or 6 clicks needed to zero at a closer distsnce or whatever works best with your sight system.
Because if we only zero at close distance there is no guarantee the rifle is going to group at longer distsnces due to other reasons so it is better to know IMO.
Long barel, short barrel means little. Whst matters is what bullet, speed, and sights system for the task at hand.
What matters is what type of sights and /or optics you have and how essy is for you to use them and naturally adquire the target and know where the impact is going to be, including at distances below or above the line of sight.
There are sight systems specifically desigmed for short distance fast adquisition and with stadia design that is essy to compensate for the differnces.
For hd one could use a rifle with no sights and still group pretty decently given a reference point like you do when you point with a shotgun.
But there are simple coarse open sights thst will do that very effictevely and beyond.
I would imagine that with a modern rifle one would like to sight a system and see how it would group at 50, 100 etc... yards and then come down the 4 or 6 clicks needed to zero at a closer distsnce or whatever works best with your sight system.
Because if we only zero at close distance there is no guarantee the rifle is going to group at longer distsnces due to other reasons so it is better to know IMO.
Long barel, short barrel means little. Whst matters is what bullet, speed, and sights system for the task at hand.
stuckhere
9mm
Group size has nothing to do with POI or rifle zero.
If you are really talking home defense and shooting in CQB. I suggest you work on point shooting.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Of course, yet predicting impact/ grouping at a specific point is what gives practical meaning to the POI.
That means, to put a bullet where we need it at any distance any time every single time.
Many folks zero at 100 yards because the impact moves from 2"-2.5" below the line of sight
toward the target as the distance increases and, in practical terms, being equally effective at any of those distances
folks would most likely shoot.
In a home defense situation one could zero at 25 yards and then understand the POI will climb above the line of sight
above that distance up to 5 or 6 inches at 100 yards.
The question is how easy is to estimate that one based the sight system or scope or one is capable or accurately
holding at the target? Some CQ designs are specifically designed to account for this.
There are two POIs, one is the actual POI and the other is the POI in reference to my sight system/scope that is, how easily
is for me to predict, adjust and be accurate.
So, before worrying about zero I would concentrate a bit more on what type of sight system, why choose a specific system, and
how to alternate distances if needed and then train a lot to be good with it.
Also super important in CQ to easily and safely acquire fast moving (running) targets at close/moderate distances
with a super wide unobstructed FOV, like some red-dot / illuminated stadia designs specifically designed for this very role.
Or also train point shooting like @SomeSoldier suggested or get familiar with a popular fool proof and reliable coarse sight system.
In the example below:
- Do we want the CQ circle to be our CQ zero and the white mark our 100 yards zero (White dot and lines to the right) OR
- Do we want the center yellow dot to be our 100 yard zero and the off center yellow mark (yellow lines tot he left) be our CQ reference?
how you zero is relative how it is more natural for you to use this sight system and how well you train with it.
But perhaps this is all we need along with a powerful wide area light to see well and/or blind a threat...
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Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Any gun I plan to use for home defense is zeroed for other purposes, but practiced with in point and shoot conditions. Amazing how good you can become.
Robin
Robin
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I see absolutely no benefit to zero only for home defense distances of 10 yards when the POI is only a inch or 2 in elevation unless you are planning on defense against little 2 inch men.
ExMember_4526
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Zen of the 100 Yard Zero
The topic of zeroing comes up quite frequently, and to ease explaination I wrote the following to more easily illustrate my preference and the reasons why. You might want to take a look at Molon's thread about zeroing: AR-15 Zeros and Trajectories to get better acquainted with the nuances...
www.m4carbine.net
Jack Leuba (KAC) on 100 Meter Zero
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I do not zero in handguns. 25 Yards and less, I nearly never miss mu mark.
My AR's are zeroed in at 50-100 yards, depending on the particular AR. My hunting rifles, most are dialed in for 150 yards.
My AR's are zeroed in at 50-100 yards, depending on the particular AR. My hunting rifles, most are dialed in for 150 yards.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
do you even need sights if you know your gun .. ??
i have one i know very very well .. old moss 152 semi 22LR .. took lots of woodchucks from the hip with it .. i grew up with this gun .. i can't count the bricks of 22's i have put thru it .. its my go to gun for chucks ..
love shooting chucks on the run up close with it .. like within 5 feet .. yelling to my neighbor .. woodchuck .. what !! wood chuck .. jump on the handy cap ramp .. chuck under it .. .. pew pew pew pew .. chuck almost ran between my legs lol .. 2 in the back .. shot one of front foot off and one on the back ,.. still had 3 shots to go .. just from point shooting and knowing that gun
@BoruchYaakov might turn into a fang fan LOL ..
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Hypothesis, youtubers and any other theories aside, whatever zero you choose you are going to have two zeros one closer than the other further downrange so consider if you want both to be useful.
So the question is, do you want to use both or just one and then a different story is, whatever you choose is it intuitive and easy with your sight system that is the first consideration to have?
CBQ scopes and sights have a design that might allow for quick transition from very close range to std ranges. Many have stadia designs
to make the rifle effective at CBQ after a standard 100 yard zero yet engage naturally up to 200-300 yards w/o doing much. (fool proof)
IMO we tend to focus a lot on equipment yet, if one is serious about personal/home defense, the most important investment is go take some
training from a reputable professional where all these things are discussed and put to work through drill instruction and practical / modern
scenarios when one gets to learn what works and what doesn't work.
For home defense "exclusively" all that one might need is this and the AR might not be the best choice of round and rifle to start with.
So the question is, do you want to use both or just one and then a different story is, whatever you choose is it intuitive and easy with your sight system that is the first consideration to have?
CBQ scopes and sights have a design that might allow for quick transition from very close range to std ranges. Many have stadia designs
to make the rifle effective at CBQ after a standard 100 yard zero yet engage naturally up to 200-300 yards w/o doing much. (fool proof)
IMO we tend to focus a lot on equipment yet, if one is serious about personal/home defense, the most important investment is go take some
training from a reputable professional where all these things are discussed and put to work through drill instruction and practical / modern
scenarios when one gets to learn what works and what doesn't work.
For home defense "exclusively" all that one might need is this and the AR might not be the best choice of round and rifle to start with.
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Bustedknees
.308 Win
Just about every centerfire rifle I have is sighted 1-2" high at 100 yards as game rifles. Might have to make some changes to play more @dsdmmat monthly games .
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Anyone familiar with the KAC open sights? I know the military had something similar,but I never used them
stuckhere
9mm
Really, Shawn's video illustrates it clearly. Screw all of the talk about how well all of the fancy optics with complex reticles work, how I zero my hunting rifle, how big my D is, etc. Reality- if we are talking about intermediate rifle cartridges, expectation of immediate incapacitation, and what would be considered an "average-medium HD distance", we should be talking strictly zero magnification optics or iron sights. That said, Pick your distance that you think you can reasonably identify a potential threat, and how much above/below point of aim you are willing to accept your point of impact. The photo/video is your basic guide. Choose wisely.