Cuomo extended our waiting time for handguns?

[dwa12479]

I didn't realize how confusing it can be from county to county. Saddens me really, I can remember just buying a gun, no forms no background check, just buy it like any other article of goods you might desire, and you could buy ammo in gas stations, hardware stores, even some grocery stores.
If you hadn't lived in such an environment of freedom you just don't realize how far we have fallen, how much paid for in blood Liberty we have lost.
Robin

No truer words can be spoken.

 

[dwa12479]

Interesting turn of events recently. I went to pick up a pistol and filled out the form. Form asked for full middle name. My license only had an initial. FFL said to send him a picture of my passport with my middle name spelled out. He said ATF is cracking down. Never had a problem before.

That's a recent change in NYS. Stores will send sell you a 1 day fishing license and include your full middle. Then use that that for NICS. What a friggin farce.

SHALL. NOT. BE INFRINGED.

 

[Cattafly]

The question was about running a NICS before giving a receipt.

The rest of that is irrelevant.

NICS is only required on pick up. It is just a waste of everyone's time running it before that.

As for compensating the FFL for storing it, it was a hypothetical scenerio, but if you are forthright about what you're doing, the FFL could certainly decide what they want to charge for storage. Everything else, I assume they have a standard charge to process a transfer, and it's actually less work for them if you never take possession than if you pick it up.

Yea, a hypothetical way of making some one elses life harder for your own benefit. It would make for a confusing transaction and maybe in the end be less paper work but a major pain in the ass you gave the FFL. You might think they are making tons of money but in fact they don't have have the time to play games some would like to play and for most it is hobby that turned into a lot more work while still working their day jobs to pay the bills.
Do you know how hard it is to stay compliant in NY? Maybe we ought to all close the doors so you all can rely on Walmart to get your stuff. But then again they don't sell handgun ammo or accept handgun transfers.
Yep the question was on background checks and you or no one else has shown me where a FFL can't run a NICS check before they give a receipt

 

[TonyRossi]

I’m an FFL and I run all my background checks before I give a receipt . Why in the world would I give a receipt to someone that can’t pass a background check ? Then all of a sudden this joker has a gun on his permit and fails the BGC..
no thanks.

 

[Cattafly]

I’m an FFL and I run all my background checks before I give a receipt . Why in the world would I give a receipt to someone that can’t pass a background check ? Then all of a sudden this joker has a gun on his permit and fails the BGC..
no thanks.

THANK You Tony, some one with common sense finally. And not liberal common sense!!!!

 

[spat]

I’m an FFL and I run all my background checks before I give a receipt . Why in the world would I give a receipt to someone that can’t pass a background check ? Then all of a sudden this joker has a gun on his permit and fails the BGC..
no thanks.

So you just won't sell to the guys who have to buy a gun before applying for their permit then ?

Someone *with* a permit who doesn't get a proceed is just going to have to fight through some paperwork issues, presumably they will eventually be getting the gun.

 

[Cattafly]

So you just won't sell to the guys who have to buy a gun before applying for their permit then ?

Someone *with* a permit who doesn't get a proceed is just going to have to fight through some paperwork issues, presumably they will eventually be getting the gun.

I believe he said he wouldn't give a receipt without the background check. Why would an FFL sell a gun and have to store it for God knows how long not knowing if ever a person will actually apply for a permit? If a person has an acceptance letter for their permit then that's a different story.

 

[TonyRossi]

So you just won't sell to the guys who have to buy a gun before applying for their permit then ?

Someone *with* a permit who doesn't get a proceed is just going to have to fight through some paperwork issues, presumably they will eventually be getting the gun.

no I will not sell to a person that does not have a permit already.

 

[Acer-m14]

Iowa passed .. no papers needed now .. just a nics .. #19 now to get what was his name selling from the trunk a laptop to do nics ..

DeShawn .. is his cuz Tyrone ?? he may need a laptop too ..

 

[spat]

I believe he said he wouldn't give a receipt without the background check. Why would an FFL sell a gun and have to store it for God knows how long not knowing if ever a person will actually apply for a permit? If a person has an acceptance letter for their permit then that's a different story.

Because there are counties in NY that *require* someone to purchase a handgun *before* their permit will be approved.

Why not just charge a reasonable storage fee ?

 

[nortatoga]

I have bought pistols from FFL's in Saratoga, Warren, Fulton and Montgomery Counties and not once did I do a NICS cheek before the FFL would give me a receipt! I did the NICS when I got the coupon from the Sheriff.

My guess that a FFL that needs to do a NICS before giving the buyer a receipt does not have much in the way of inventory ??

 

[Cattafly]

Because there are counties in NY that *require* someone to purchase a handgun *before* their permit will be approved.

Why not just charge a reasonable storage fee ?

Are you sure you have to purchase before they will approve your permit? Or is it you must have a gun to put on your permit when *actually* picking it up? I have seen numerous people with acceptance letters from their county telling them they are approved and the FFL uses that when selling the gun. Now a person has a gun to put on their permit when they *actually* go in person to pick up their permit.
Most shops don't want the hassle of storing guns for various reasons. And what is "reasonable"?

 

[spat]

Are you sure you have to purchase before they will approve your permit? Or is it you must have a gun to put on your permit when *actually* picking it up? I have seen numerous people with acceptance letters from their county telling them they are approved and the FFL uses that when selling the gun. Now a person has a gun to put on their permit when they *actually* go in person to pick up their permit.
Most shops don't want the hassle of storing guns for various reasons. And what is "reasonable"?

In my former county, we didn't have any of that shenanigans. You applied for your permit, it was issued, then you could buy whatever you wanted (or not, I know a guy who's had his permit for years and never got one).

I always though the idea you had to get one before getting the permit was ludicrous, but this is NY, so ludicrous is just how they roll. If I had to guess why, it's probably because they have a box on some paperwork for a serial number and it burns someone's ass to leave it blank.

I don't know for sure that there is a county where you have to purchase the gun before you even apply, but I seem to remember hearing about one somewhere.



As for what's "reasonable", well it's somewhere between the amount you would require before you'd decide it's worth your time, and the amount someone is willing to pay to have you do it.

Maybe there's no real number in between those two values, but maybe there is.

I'm sure if you could charge $100/month to store a handgun, you'd be all over it.

I doubt many people would pay that much, but maybe there are people willing to pay enough to make it worth your time.

Pawn shops do exactly that all the time, that's why most of them have an FFL.

Lots of other shops sell guns on consignment, which is pretty close to doing that too.

 

[Russ Woody]

I’m an FFL and I run all my background checks before I give a receipt . Why in the world would I give a receipt to someone that can’t pass a background check ? Then all of a sudden this joker has a gun on his permit and fails the BGC..
no thanks.

That is exactly how my FFL does it. Any receipt that you get from a vendor online is NOT the receipt my pistol permit office honors. You have to get a receipt from your FFL with THEIR FFL # on it to register it. The other receipt from purchase doesn't mean anything in Cortland County.

 

[nortatoga]

Are you sure you have to purchase before they will approve your permit? Or is it you must have a gun to put on your permit when *actually* picking it up? I have seen numerous people with acceptance letters from their county telling them they are approved and the FFL uses that when selling the gun. Now a person has a gun to put on their permit when they *actually* go in person to pick up their permit.
Most shops don't want the hassle of storing guns for various reasons. And what is "reasonable"?

In Saratoga County you must put a pistol on your license application, most shops want at least 50% down and may want you to pay it down over the next few months while you wait for approval. Shops know they will be sitting on said pistol for awhile.

 

[dwa12479]

I’m an FFL and I run all my background checks before I give a receipt . Why in the world would I give a receipt to someone that can’t pass a background check ? Then all of a sudden this joker has a gun on his permit and fails the BGC..
no thanks.

Thats your choice, and that's fine. But saying its required by state law to pass a NICS before a customer can be given a bill of sale to add a handgun to their permit is incorrect.

 

[TonyRossi]

Thats your choice, and that's fine. But saying its required by state law to pass a NICS before a customer can be given a bill of sale to add a handgun to their permit is incorrect.

I never said that it’s required by “state law”
I said I would NEVER give out a receipt without doing a background check first.
Someone else on here was saying that the way I do it was wrong.

 

[dwa12479]

I never said that it’s required by “state law”
I said I would NEVER give out a receipt without doing a background check first.
Someone else on here was saying that the way I do it was wrong.

A FFL has to do a nics check BEFORE giving the buyer a receipt to add gun to his permit. There is no scenario where this would not happen.

I interpreted this above quote as you believing it required by law to run NICS before a buyer can have a bill of sale.

As I said, you're able to do that if its what you're comfortable with, but its not required.

 

[Cattafly]

Well this whole thread kinda blew up with Chicken Shoot and then he had his wife jump in. So where do we stand Chicken Shoot? I'm looking forward to you and your wifes opinion, or fact, after she talked to her ATF contact. Not being a pain in the ass but inquiring minds would like to know.

 

[Acer-m14]

i buy a pistol or rifle on gunbroker .. all payed for ..... do they do the nics and send it to my FFL or does my FFL i pick it up at do the nics ?

 

[Cattafly]

i buy a pistol or rifle on gunbroker .. all payed for ..... do they do the nics and send it to my FFL or does my FFL i pick it up at do the nics ?

Your FFL does the check and if you get delayed or denied it becomes their problem. Not monetary because you paid for it but if just delayed and get proceed , no problem. If delay goes to "open" or denied it is a problem for you and the FFL to work out. NICS checks MUST be done in person.

 

[spat]

I never said that it’s required by “state law”
I said I would NEVER give out a receipt without doing a background check first.
Someone else on here was saying that the way I do it was wrong.

It's a bit of a gray area.

The NICS system, by law, is only to be used to transfer a firearm.

If you have a reasonable expectation that you will be transferring it without having to run a second check then it's probably fine.

But if you sell to clients from a county that typically takes longer than 30 days to approve ammendments (necessitating a second NICS for the transfer), then it is probably an abuse of the system to run the first one you *know* won't be used for the transfer.

Imagine explaining to an ATF auditor why you ran twice as many NICS checks than your books show transfers.

 

[Cattafly]

It's a bit of a gray area.

The NICS system, by law, is only to be used to transfer a firearm.

If you have a reasonable expectation that you will be transferring it without having to run a second check then it's probably fine.

But if you sell to clients from a county that typically takes longer than 30 days to approve ammendments (necessitating a second NICS for the transfer), then it is probably an abuse of the system to run the first one you *know* won't be used for the transfer.

Imagine explaining to an ATF auditor why you ran twice as many NICS checks than your books show transfers.

Since Cuomo made his 30 day wait law, many have necessitated a second check and with the covid many have needed to redo a 4473 as the first expired. Explanation: according to law we had to run 2nd check because of 30 day wait, covid delays, and some people were just too lazy or didn't know the time limit to pick it up on time.
Yes it is illegal to just run a check because you want to know if a person can pass it. But is not illegal when used to facilitate the transfer of a firearm no matter how many checks it takes.

 

[GOPerfect]

Hi. This is Chicken Shoots wife. I work closely with the ATF and the reason we aren't allowed to run a background check *before* you come to pick up your gun is due to the fact that the NICS background check cannot be run until the DAY the pistol is actually being transferred to you. (And I do hope I'm reading that right and you didn't actually mean to imply that a background check is run on you without you being present!) Our process at our stores is as follows:
You come pick out the gun you want. You pay for the pistol, then we write a receipt with your name, NYSDL info, pistol permit info, and gun information. You get one copy, we retain the second copy in a file, the pistol goes in our pistol layaway room and then we all wait. You take the receipt and either mail it or bring it to your local county clerks pistol permit office, they then proceed to process the paperwork on their end, and hand it off to a judge to be signed off on. You then receive your coupon as well as your new amended pistol permit. You then bring that coupon to us on the day you come to pick up your pistol. We take that coupon, pull your receipt, pull your gun, verify the serial numbers are all correct on all forms, then hand you the 4473 form. You give us your NYSDL as well as your pistol permit with at least one showing your current physical address, you finish filling out the 4473, then we fill out our part of the same form. We then go to our computer, run your background check thru the NICS system, at which time we will receive one of three answers: Proceed, Delay, or Denied. If you are proceeded, you walk out the door with your firearm while we wish you a good day. If you are delayed, you do not leave with your firearm, and we start the waiting game. If you are proceeded anytime before 3 days are up, we call you and you can come pick up your firearm. If we do not receive a response within the 3 days, the NYS 30 day wait takes effect, then on the 31st day or shortly thereafter, you need to come back in, fill out another 4473, we run you again, and if you are delayed a second time this is when the Federal Brady Transfer Date takes effect. If we do not receive an answer from the NICS system by the Brady Transfer Date indicated on the Delay decision printout, we are, per Federal law, then allowed to transfer the firearm to you. (Since we are in the lovely state of NY, the 30 day waiting period required by law has already been satisfied and the 3 day Federal Brady date law then kicks in. This is why the 2nd check has to be run, to satisfy the Federal law...) If you are Denied, there are a couple of things you can do. Accept it, get your $ back on the firearm and hope the ATF doesn't come knocking wanting to know why you thought you could buy a gun when obviously you've got a past. Understand that it might be a mistake and you can fight it. To do that you will need the NTN (NICS Transaction Number) and log into the ATF website and dispute the decision. As far as why it is not allowed to run a background check before you plan to take possession of your firearm, we legally are not allowed to run a check until the actual date the transfer takes place. Of course there are exceptions, such as you've been delayed, but those are not very common. Just in the high volume of sales my main store does per day (a normal day lately is average $20,000), I get maybe one or two per week that were not picked up on the actual day the transfer was completed.
Now I understand some counties are different as far as the coupon process, but we are NEVER allowed to transfer a pistol to someone without a coupon either. Regardless of what county you are coming from. It states right on the coupon that it MUST be surrendered to the Transferee (us) upon receipt of the firearm. So, I'm not sure what is up with that as every coupon I've seen from our surrounding counties all say the same thing...? And that is a NYS thing, not a county thing... ? As far as running a background check immediately on a person that has just purchased a pistol and they are now waiting on an amendment, yeah, that's a no no. I will verify with my ATF contacts tomorrow, and I will call a few of them so I can get accurate information, but as far as how we've been doing it and how the ATF trained me in this whole process, the background checks cannot be run until the time of the actual transfer.
Hope this helps you guys and clears up any confusion!
Just message him back if you have any more questions or need clarification on anything and he will ask me.
Have a great night!
Kristy

Kristy and CS....

I am confused. Very confused. I will share my confusion and tell me if I am saying this incorrectly...

I sold guns for many, many years. A typical sale was as follows...

Guy comes in to purchase a handgun.

Guy picks out handgun and tells me I am awesome for not selling him a Glock.

Guy fills out 4473, I fill out the sections that I am required to fill out.

I contact the NICS via computer or phone call.

Guy is approved to purchase said handgun. I fill out a store made receipt, this receipt contains his personal information, the gun information as well as the NICS verification letter.

Guy takes that paperwork to the Permit office, comes back a day or two later and I give him the gun. There is a section that he signs prior to leaving the store.

I sold hundreds and hundreds of guns this way. As did all of my co-workers.

 

[GOPerfect]

no I will not sell to a person that does not have a permit already.

I am curious of why? I did all of the time.

 

[Saltwater60]

Kristy and CS....

I am confused. Very confused. I will share my confusion and tell me if I am saying this incorrectly...

I sold guns for many, many years. A typical sale was as follows...

Guy comes in to purchase a handgun.

Guy picks out handgun and tells me I am awesome for not selling him a Glock.

Guy fills out 4473, I fill out the sections that I am required to fill out.

I contact the NICS via computer or phone call.

Guy is approved to purchase said handgun. I fill out a store made receipt, this receipt contains his personal information, the gun information as well as the NICS verification letter.

Guy takes that paperwork to the Permit office, comes back a day or two later and I give him the gun. There is a section that he signs prior to leaving the store.

I sold hundreds and hundreds of guns this way. As did all of my co-workers.

This is how I’ve bought all of my handguns.

 

[spat]

Since Cuomo made his 30 day wait law, many have necessitated a second check and with the covid many have needed to redo a 4473 as the first expired. Explanation: according to law we had to run 2nd check because of 30 day wait, covid delays, and some people were just too lazy or didn't know the time limit to pick it up on time.
Yes it is illegal to just run a check because you want to know if a person can pass it. But is not illegal when used to facilitate the transfer of a firearm no matter how many checks it takes.

If you have reason to believe the first check isn't going to be the one for the transfer, and you're just running it to weed out customers that might otherwise waste your time, isn’t that the definition of "just run a check because you want to know if a person can pass it."


I realize there are any number of legitimate reasons a second check might become necessary. But if you're *expecting* to need a second check when you run the first one (say in a county where amendments are taking 6 weeks), then the first one shouldn't be done.

No check should be run until you're actually ready to hand over the gun. Anything else is improper.

 

[Cattafly]

If you have reason to believe the first check isn't going to be the one for the transfer, and you're just running it to weed out customers that might otherwise waste your time, isn’t that the definition of "just run a check because you want to know if a person can pass it."


I realize there are any number of legitimate reasons a second check might become necessary. But if you're *expecting* to need a second check when you run the first one (say in a county where amendments are taking 6 weeks), then the first one shouldn't be done.

No check should be run until you're actually ready to hand over the gun. Anything else is improper.

No I am not *expecting* to have to do a second check but if the first is delayed And Cuomo's 30 day wait comes into play it is probably going to be necessary. If you wait to run the check until the day it's going to be picked up it could still be delayed with no definitive answer for 30 days necessitating a second check. Not doing anything to "weed" out anyone, just starting the process the day the gun is purchased. Your first paragraph kind of insinuates I would try to screw people over when exactly the opposite is true.

"just run a check because you want to know if a person can pass it." only comes into play if a customer request that with no intention of purchasing a firearm but just wants to know if they could pass it. The check must be done in person for the intent of buying a firearm. And so you can't twist my words, NO I wouldn't do it for that reason.

 

[spat]

No I am not *expecting* to have to do a second check but if the first is delayed And Cuomo's 30 day wait comes into play it is probably going to be necessary. If you wait to run the check until the day it's going to be picked up it could still be delayed with no definitive answer for 30 days necessitating a second check. Not doing anything to "weed" out anyone, just starting the process the day the gun is purchased. Your first paragraph kind of insinuates I would try to screw people over when exactly the opposite is true.

"just run a check because you want to know if a person can pass it." only comes into play if a customer request that with no intention of purchasing a firearm but just wants to know if they could pass it. The check must be done in person for the intent of buying a firearm. And so you can't twist my words, NO I wouldn't do it for that reason.

I'm not insinuating anything.

What is the reason for running the check before you are ready for the pickup ? The only legitimate advantage to doing it I can see would be for the very small minority of cases where you get a delay and then a proceed.

In your market it probably doesn't make a difference because the vast majority of people will be able to pick up using the original check.

But if your shop were in one of the PITA counties where 6 weeks wait for an ammendment is common, then your first check would probably be an abuse of the system.

 

[Cattafly]

I'm not insinuating anything.

What is the reason for running the check before you are ready for the pickup ? The only legitimate advantage to doing it I can see would be for the very small minority of cases where you get a delay and then a proceed.

In your market it probably doesn't make a difference because the vast majority of people will be able to pick up using the original check.

But if your shop were in one of the PITA counties where 6 weeks wait for an ammendment is common, then your first check would probably be an abuse of the system.

Yea I guess if you want to find a way to nit pick a way to call or make it abuse of the system then I guess YOU could call it that. Yes in our market , that covers all of WNY, most are back in days and some are back the same day. Now as far as waiting 6 weeks, don't you think those people would like to use that time to straighten out a problem with the ATF and FBI so that when their amendment comes through the problem is already taken care of? Remember I said the check is done with the intent of buying a firearm not just to see if they can pass the NICS check.

"I'm not insinuating anything." Ok then but it sure sounds as if you are digging deep to make it look like we do things fraudulently at best and illegal at worst. As I've asked before, Why is there a spot on the 4473 where a person signs to recertify that the previous check is still true?