Denied my Sportsperson amendment!!!

[Criticalt]

Does it make me a bad person to say I'd chip into a GoFundMe to watch you fight a black bear?

I have had quite a few run-ins with black bears......and couple with brown bears.
We have bee hives, a slaughter house and a meat curing room on our property.
The end of summer-late fall it gets interesting. We have ALOT of bears here.
During the 2017 hunting season, there were 11 bears taken in a town of less than 400 people. One of the bears was killed by a car but, it was "taken".
We get them on our back porch, digging up the garden and walking out of the woods while we are out there. Oddly, they have not messed with our dumpster very much.
Also, we have 4 big farm dogs who USED to chase the bears away. Now they just watch them until we tell them to chase.
We mostly get a big (400lb) sow and her cubs every year. Usually 5-6 cubs from new born to 2 years.
Anyways, I do chase them out of the yard and have never had one turn.......if they do, thats where the fist fight will happen. heres mama and 2 year old on the porch.

 

[Robin]

I know nothing of your physicality Criticalt but even so I don't think you would fare well against a full grown wild black bear. I don't think even Chuck Liddell would win over such a beast.
Robin

 

[Criticalt]

I know nothing of your physicality Criticalt but even so I don't think you would fare well against a full grown wild black bear. I don't think even Chuck Liddell would win over such a beast.
Robin

Of course I wouldnt win a physical fight with a bear.
But I could win a mental fight with a bear.
Black bears are generally non-confrontational and when confronted, the usually run.
And of course before this thread runs away as usual, im not going to fight a bear.
Im just saying that 99 out of 100 times, you dont need a gun to fend off a black bear.
A loud fart is enough to send them running.

 

[BDinPutnam]

And of course before this thread runs away as usual, im not going to fight a bear.

Dammit.

 

[tommygunz]

I would just like to point out something. A Target licence is NOT a Target/Hunting licence. They're different, if you go to the site, you will find a separate attachment for either Target or Hunting it's not a combo. Adding to that, I do not hunt, I have no plans on hunting, so amending to that to have a work around is not an option for me.

 

[Raven20878]

I would just like to point out something. A Target licence is NOT a Target/Hunting licence. They're different, if you go to the site, you will find a separate attachment for either Target or Hunting it's not a combo. Adding to that, I do not hunt, I have no plans on hunting, so amending to that to have a work around is not an option for me.

Do you own the house in Greene County? If you do, discuss with your attorney how you can declare that home as your residence and transfer your permit from Westchester to Greene County. After 6 months or so you could request to amend your permit to a Full Carry there.

 

[tommygunz]

unfortunately i don't

 

[Cooolone]

I know I'm late to the thread, and haven't read it all... But I find it befuddling when people fill out applications for things and buy into questions contained therein which are inconsistent with the Law.

Simple answer to purpose/need:
"For all legal purposes"...

That's it!

I don't need to be a hunter, or even a competition target shooter. I don't need to be a hiker or anything else, other than a lawful citizen exercising my "Right" to keep and bear arms!

It actually simplifies things a bit for "if and when" you get denied, because you made your purpose clear, and if the denied, then the denial is infringing upon your "Rights"... You eliminate the ability for the judge to state you haven't met the burden of exhibiting a "need"... Fuck that bullshit!

Artificial administrative embellishments placed upon applications are tantamount to a judge "legislating from the bench"...

I know, I know... Preaching to the choir!

Anyways, thanks for reading!
/end rant

 

[ken75ranger]

I didn't see rabid animals in your letter to the judge. If your attorney says to write a new letter I would include that. I see rabid fox, raccoons, coyotes at least once a year in my area and I'm on the outskirts of a city. All are dangerous and can't be trusted not to attack humans.
Sucks to hear all the crap people go through in some counties. Good luck.

 

[tommygunz]

Quick teaser I received from my attorney. "Received the County's letters....so infuriating."
Unfortunately my attorney is in court today, so I won't get my copies until tomorrow!

 

[tommygunz]

I can’t post the entire response until after we submit the appeal, but I will give you a quick summary.
First, He thought my statement was a general need. “We do not distill extraordinary danger from this statement. A self-protection firearm license should only be issued if there is some extraordinary, particularized danger to be protected against. Other applicant’s for self protection firearm licenses issued by Westchester County show verifiable proof of danger or other compelling need.”
Second, the license sought is over-broad in that it apparently would allow the applicant to carry a firearm for any recreational
use, including uses nit documented in the firearm license application. This differs from all other restricted firearm licenses issued by Westchester County where the firearm use is strictly determined in advance and listed on the license card. In this way, the allowed firearm use is certain to the license-holder, to law-enforcement officers and to members of the public generally. Certainty of firearm use improves public safety.
Third, the recreational activities cited by the applicant could be done locally. This is a problem because of the population density of Westchester County is too high to allow a handgun to be fired at animals in public spaces with the complete safety to other persons in the same area.
Finally, most people who engage in outdoor recreational activities such as those cited by the applicant do so without being armed with a firearm. This applicant has not shown how he is different from such other persons.
There's a bit more, but I think you can see whats going on here. Someone doesn't want me to have this for personal beliefs! I stated that I did my activities upstate not at the Valhala Dam! I also stated that I would carry for all lawful purposes, which means that I wouldn't carry where it wasn't lawful to do so. So he's assuming a bunch of things here and for that I'm being denied my rights.

It’s always about the County’s personal opinions, which are completely UNAUTHORIZED under the statute…they are acting outside of their statutory authority and should be restrained by a court Order. The licensing statute is an ex parte application – between the applicant and the judge/licensing officer. NOT a litigated issue between the applicant as one party and the County as an opposing party…And, the County is NOT legal advisor to the licensing officer…they are not practicing attorneys and the only judge’s law clerk is his/her legal advisor.

 

[togmaster]

Care to share which judge this is?

 

[tommygunz]

Care to share which judge this is?

That wasn't written by the judge, the was written by the Captain of the pistol licensing unit and initialed by the Deputy Commissioner.

 

[Raven20878]

That wasn't written by the judge, the was written by the Captain of the pistol licensing unit and initialed by the Deputy Commissioner.

You have a real case here then if it did not actually go to the judge and the denial was from the Captain of the licensing unit and not a Judge. As you know, the judges are the licensing authority in Westchester. The Pistol Licensing Unit is there to do investigations and make recommendations to the judge. Did your denial of the amendment come from a Judge or was the only correspondence you received from the Captain of the Pistol Licensing Unit?

 

[tommygunz]

Hi Raven,
It was written by the Captain with the final statement "This application is respectfully forwarded with a recommendation of DISAPPROVAL. (in caps just like that ). Then the deputy commissioner signed off under his signature and wrote Recommend disapproval. My attorney is in disbelief and quite frankly extremely upset over this. We're hoping the Judge (who from what I understand is very reasonable ) will have a change of heart once she writes him the letter along with the appeal. Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.

 

[Raven20878]

Hi Raven,
It was written by the Captain with the final statement "This application is respectfully forwarded with a recommendation of DISAPPROVAL. (in caps just like that ). Then the deputy commissioner signed off under his signature and wrote Recommend disapproval. My attorney is in disbelief and quite frankly extremely upset over this. We're hoping the Judge (who from what I understand is very reasonable ) will have a change of heart once she writes him the letter along with the appeal. Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.

Did you get a disapproval letter from the judge also? Was the letter from the Captain to the judge and your attorney was able to obtain it?

 

[tommygunz]

Did you get a disapproval letter from the judge also? Was the letter from the Captain to the judge and your attorney was able to obtain it?

Captain wrote the letter the Commissioner co-signed it and then sent to the Judge. I only received a letter from the Judge, my attorney had to request the letters and yes she was able to obtain them.

 

[Doc8404]

Fuck that shit.
Ain’t a job in the world worth that shit.

 

[Jem45472]

Must not be any criminals in Westchester.

 

[Raven20878]

Captain wrote the letter the Commissioner co-signed it and then sent to the Judge. I only received a letter from the Judge, my attorney had to request the letters and yes she was able to obtain them.

While it is unusual for the judge to go against the recommendation of the Public Safety Unit, it is not unprecedented. While more often than not, in these cases it is the Judge denying a permit despite the positive endorsement of the Detectives, I have heard of cases like yours where the opposite is true. You have a good attorney so good luck.

 

[camper4lyfe]

What an utter crock of shit.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Captain wrote the letter the Commissioner co-signed it and then sent to the Judge. I only received a letter from the Judge, my attorney had to request the letters and yes she was able to obtain them.

Sad but true that this kind of crap goes on in NY due to it being a "may issue" state. I encountered a similar issue when I got my permit years ago. I had complained to the pistol permit office that they were taking longer than the 6 months allowed by NYS law to process applications. I also complained to their boss, the Erie County clerk, who got on their ass. But they extracted their revenge. They sent my app to my local PD for investigation, with negative comments written on it, and asked them to do a "very thorough" investigation of me. The police found jack shit, even after contacting anybody and everybody they could, even including my ex wife and my minor children, and business associates.

My local PD Chief wrote a recommendation to DISALLOW me, because he didn't like my attitude for complaining to the PPO that THEY were not following the law! The Judge thought otherwise and issued me an Unrestricted CCW. My local PD Chief is still pissed over it. A few years ago now, a man who had threatened my life on multiple occasions (and I even have documented police reports wherein he admitted to threatening my life) showed up at my home uninvited. When I told him to stay the fuck off my property and in his car as I stood on my own front lawn, he called 911. I was armed at the time, but did not draw, or in any way threaten him. No charges filed all around, - the cops just sent him on his way, and returned my gun to me at the end of the call. But the same police chief then sent a letter to the pistol permit office demanding that my permit be revoked BECAUSE "I used profanity to keep him off my own property, and I had the audacity to carry ammo on me for my licensed firearm"! WTF?

My permit was suspended; I had to turn in my handguns; hire a lawyer and go to court to get my permit "reinstated". The judge laughed at the stupidity of the police chief's letter after I pointed out to him that I had dissuaded the guy using ONLY profanity; thereby avoided pulling my firearm, AND then I reminded him that carrying a firearm without ammo makes the gun essentially worthless. The judge reinstated it the same day as I testified in court, but the pistol permit office and my local PD dragged their feet for months on returning my permit and guns back to me. In fact, I had to stay on their asses, and even then, it took 3 months AFTER the judge's order.

I point out what happened to me in the hope that you may be able to help draw any help from it in your appeal. And hopefully, the judge is an independent thinker who will discount their BS, and grant you your amendment.

Good Luck! May issue does suck. Come on SCOTUS! and FUAC too!

 

[Doc8404]

Sad but true that this kind of crap goes on in NY due to it being a "may issue" state. I encountered a similar issue when I got my permit years ago. I had complained to the pistol permit office that they were taking longer than the 6 months allowed by NYS law to process applications. I also complained to their boss, the Erie County clerk, who got on their ass. But they extracted their revenge. They sent my app to my local PD for investigation, with negative comments written on it, and asked them to do a "very thorough" investigation of me. The police found jack shit, even after contacting anybody and everybody they could, even including my ex wife and my minor children, and business associates.

My local PD Chief wrote a recommendation to DISALLOW me, because he didn't like my attitude for complaining to the PPO that THEY were not following the law! The Judge thought otherwise and issued me an Unrestricted CCW. My local PD Chief is still pissed over it. A few years ago now, a man who had threatened my life on multiple occasions (and I even have documented police reports wherein he admitted to threatening my life) showed up at my home uninvited. When I told him to stay the fuck off my property and in his car as I stood on my own front lawn, he called 911. I was armed at the time, but did not draw, or in any way threaten him. No charges filed all around, - the cops just sent him on his way, and returned my gun to me at the end of the call. But the same police chief then sent a letter to the pistol permit office demanding that my permit be revoked BECAUSE "I used profanity to keep him off my own property, and I had the audacity to carry ammo on me for my licensed firearm"! WTF?

My permit was suspended; I had to turn in my handguns; hire a lawyer and go to court to get my permit "reinstated". The judge laughed at the stupidity of the police chief's letter after I pointed out to him that I had dissuaded the guy using ONLY profanity; thereby avoided pulling my firearm, AND then I reminded him that carrying a firearm without ammo makes the gun essentially worthless. The judge reinstated it the same day as I testified in court, but the pistol permit office and my local PD dragged their feet for months on returning my permit and guns back to me. In fact, I had to stay on their asses, and even then, it took 3 months AFTER the judge's order.

I point out what happened to me in the hope that you may be able to help draw any help from it in your appeal. And hopefully, the judge is an independent thinker who will discount their BS, and grant you your amendment.

Good Luck! May issue does suck. Come on SCOTUS! and FUAC too!

Seems the judge was in your side.
Doesn’t he have to pull your permit?
Or is that different in your county?

 

[Robin]

Sounds like either you got something in your background, or somebody has a personal problem with you.
Robin

 

[Criticalt]

I can’t post the entire response until after we submit the appeal, but I will give you a quick summary.
First, He thought my statement was a general need. “We do not distill extraordinary danger from this statement. A self-protection firearm license should only be issued if there is some extraordinary, particularized danger to be protected against. Other applicant’s for self protection firearm licenses issued by Westchester County show verifiable proof of danger or other compelling need.”
Second, the license sought is over-broad in that it apparently would allow the applicant to carry a firearm for any recreational
use, including uses nit documented in the firearm license application. This differs from all other restricted firearm licenses issued by Westchester County where the firearm use is strictly determined in advance and listed on the license card. In this way, the allowed firearm use is certain to the license-holder, to law-enforcement officers and to members of the public generally. Certainty of firearm use improves public safety.
Third, the recreational activities cited by the applicant could be done locally. This is a problem because of the population density of Westchester County is too high to allow a handgun to be fired at animals in public spaces with the complete safety to other persons in the same area.
Finally, most people who engage in outdoor recreational activities such as those cited by the applicant do so without being armed with a firearm. This applicant has not shown how he is different from such other persons.
There's a bit more, but I think you can see whats going on here. Someone doesn't want me to have this for personal beliefs! I stated that I did my activities upstate not at the Valhala Dam! I also stated that I would carry for all lawful purposes, which means that I wouldn't carry where it wasn't lawful to do so. So he's assuming a bunch of things here and for that I'm being denied my rights.

It’s always about the County’s personal opinions, which are completely UNAUTHORIZED under the statute…they are acting outside of their statutory authority and should be restrained by a court Order. The licensing statute is an ex parte application – between the applicant and the judge/licensing officer. NOT a litigated issue between the applicant as one party and the County as an opposing party…And, the County is NOT legal advisor to the licensing officer…they are not practicing attorneys and the only judge’s law clerk is his/her legal advisor.

I love the part about there being places in Westchester Co that are heavily populated and your permit would allow you to shoot wild animals.
So is this police officer saying that if his child is attacked by a coyote, he would not shoot it?
I guarantee he would be shooting.
So, his kids must be more important than yours.

On a side note........
Ill shoot an attacking coyote in the middle of Sunday bruch in a church.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Seems the judge was in your side.
Doesn’t he have to pull your permit?
Or is that different in your county?

A point of clarification in my case, - I dealt with 2 judges. When I applied for my permit, I demonstrated that I had no criminal record; a lifetime business owner who worked long hours alone and in strange places; an Honorably Discharged USN vet who also was on my ship's SWAT team; had firearm experience dating back to my teenage years; with 1 speeding ticket in the last 30 years, and other justifiable need... I can only presume that he looked past the police chiefs complaint re my attitude when I complained about the pistol permit office violating NYS law that says they have 6 months, when they were routinely taking 12 - 18 months, - especially since he is signing the permits when they finally got to him 12 - 18 months after people applied!

In between getting my permit, and the incident at my home a few years later, I had been introduced to the judge at a public social function we both happened to attend separately. When the incident at my home occurred, he immediately recused himself because we had "met", and he passed it off to a different judge. Based on the letter the police chief wrote to the pistol permit office, the other judge suspended my permit pending my requesting a hearing. I testified under oath immediately with no preparation, and the judge reinstated my permit later that day.

So, yeah, as much as I think "may issue" laws are unfair, I have not found reason to fault the judges. Now, some of the other people who are in the process, like my local PD chief, well, they like to pretend they are big shots who control their own little fiefdoms...

 

[togmaster]

Sounds like either you got something in your background, or somebody has a personal problem with you.
Robin

@Robin unfortunately this is how Westchester County works. It has gotten worse, believe it or not, since George Latimer was elected county executive. The Public Safety Commissioner was appointed by Latimer.

 

[David D]

Bustedknees, you can't compare Westchester to the upstate counties. Westchester is a Liberal county. Mini NYC.

 

[Celt]

I love the part about there being places in Westchester Co that are heavily populated and your permit would allow you to shoot wild animals.
So is this police officer saying that if his child is attacked by a coyote, he would not shoot it?
I guarantee he would be shooting.
So, his kids must be more important than yours.

On a side note........
Ill shoot an attacking coyote in the middle of Sunday bruch in a church.

It really burns my ass that they pull this shit. And you know this guy walks around armed 24/7, and his superiority complex is glaringly obvious.

 

[Blimey]

Sad but true that this kind of crap goes on in NY due to it being a "may issue" state. I encountered a similar issue when I got my permit years ago. I had complained to the pistol permit office that they were taking longer than the 6 months allowed by NYS law to process applications. I also complained to their boss, the Erie County clerk, who got on their ass. But they extracted their revenge. They sent my app to my local PD for investigation, with negative comments written on it, and asked them to do a "very thorough" investigation of me. The police found jack shit, even after contacting anybody and everybody they could, even including my ex wife and my minor children, and business associates.

My local PD Chief wrote a recommendation to DISALLOW me, because he didn't like my attitude for complaining to the PPO that THEY were not following the law! The Judge thought otherwise and issued me an Unrestricted CCW. My local PD Chief is still pissed over it. A few years ago now, a man who had threatened my life on multiple occasions (and I even have documented police reports wherein he admitted to threatening my life) showed up at my home uninvited. When I told him to stay the fuck off my property and in his car as I stood on my own front lawn, he called 911. I was armed at the time, but did not draw, or in any way threaten him. No charges filed all around, - the cops just sent him on his way, and returned my gun to me at the end of the call. But the same police chief then sent a letter to the pistol permit office demanding that my permit be revoked BECAUSE "I used profanity to keep him off my own property, and I had the audacity to carry ammo on me for my licensed firearm"! WTF?

My permit was suspended; I had to turn in my handguns; hire a lawyer and go to court to get my permit "reinstated". The judge laughed at the stupidity of the police chief's letter after I pointed out to him that I had dissuaded the guy using ONLY profanity; thereby avoided pulling my firearm, AND then I reminded him that carrying a firearm without ammo makes the gun essentially worthless. The judge reinstated it the same day as I testified in court, but the pistol permit office and my local PD dragged their feet for months on returning my permit and guns back to me. In fact, I had to stay on their asses, and even then, it took 3 months AFTER the judge's order.

I point out what happened to me in the hope that you may be able to help draw any help from it in your appeal. And hopefully, the judge is an independent thinker who will discount their BS, and grant you your amendment.

Good Luck! May issue does suck. Come on SCOTUS! and FUAC too!

That's ridiculous. I hope you let the PD chief know that you got it back again and thanked him for his concern.