end of Boy Scouts shooting merit badge?

Carlos Hathcock · Apr 23, 2019

The continued pussification of our country.

ManrisFrack · Apr 23, 2019

The Senate version of the bill contains no exception for hunting licenses. The Assembly version does exempt "custodians of a rifle..." if the minor possessing it has a hunting license and is using the rifle, shotgun, etc. in accordance with article 11 of the environmental conservation law.

So we have no idea if the exemption will make it into the version that FUAC gets.

Even if it does, I don't think there is anything in Article 11 of the environmental conservation law about target shooting. It will effectively prohibit anyone under 16 from engaging in shooting sports that are not hunting. Yes, this will kill the shooting merit badges unless they move to air rifles. Yes, all these school trap teams that are sprouting up are done.

This is perfect example of "common sense" "how could anyone oppose this" "it's for our precious children" legislation executing a significant portion of our way of life with one or two devious sentences hidden in 'make the useful idiots feel good' legislation.

ManrisFrack · Apr 23, 2019

Start reaching out to legislators, hell, maybe even FUAC if you can stomach it. All they really need to add is an exception for "supervised target shooting and competitions." Have everyone you know do the same. They still have to rectify the two versions so maybe there's a chance?

It's probably a long shot but the shit sandwich is already made. Best we can do now is try to knock a spoonful or two off before they cram it down our throats.

Deplorable Me · Apr 23, 2019

The Second Amendment isn't about hunting. Hunting licenses are about revenue for the state.

cgrutt · Apr 23, 2019

Maybe I'm missing something this bill involves storage there already is an exemption in pl265 for shooting ages 12 to 15 under supervision NRA instructor. The BSA shooting sports program requires at least one NRA RSO and at least one NRA instructor (rifle, shotgun, pistol or muzzle loading depending on what is being done) at any BSA sponsored event. Additionally almost all of the rifle merit badge requirements don't actually require live fire. It also requires Scout to successfully complete State hunters safety course. There are already very strict requirements for safe storage of rifles, shotguns and others used in shooting sports program they may need to add a lock, IDK. Also, this would only affect NY not entire BSA shooting sports program.

kev74 · Apr 23, 2019

Here's the bill as passed by the Assembly and Senate, and awaiting Monkeyface's signature.

New York State Assembly | Bill Search and Legislative Information

No person who owns or is custodian of a rifle, shotgun or firearm and
52 knows, or has reason to know, that a person less than sixteen years of
53 age is likely to gain access to such rifle, shotgun or firearm shall
54 store or otherwise leave such rifle, shotgun or firearm out of his or
55 her immediate possession or control without having first securely locked
56 such rifle, shotgun or firearm in an appropriate safe storage depository

S. 2450--A 3 A. 2686--A

1 or rendered it incapable of being fired by use of a gun locking device
2 appropriate to that weapon. For purposes of this section "safe storage
3 depository" shall have the same meaning as such term is defined in
4 section 265.45 of this article. Nothing in this section shall be deemed
5 to affect, impair or supersede any special or local act relating to the
6 safe storage of rifles, shotguns or firearms which impose additional
7 requirements on the owner or custodian of such weapons. The possession
8 of a rifle or shotgun by a person less than sixteen years of age who is
9 the holder of a hunting license or permit issued pursuant to article
10 eleven of the environmental conservation law when used in accordance
11 with such law shall not be governed by this section.
12 Failure to safely store rifles, shotguns, and firearms in the second
13 degree is a violation punishable only by a fine of not more than two
14 hundred fifty dollars.

ManrisFrack · Apr 23, 2019

cgrutt said:
Maybe I'm missing something this bill involves storage there already is an exemption in pl265 for shooting ages 12 to 15 under supervision NRA instructor. The BSA shooting sports program requires at least one NRA RSO and at least one NRA instructor (rifle, shotgun, pistol or muzzle loading depending on what is being done) at any BSA sponsored event. Additionally almost all of the rifle merit badge requirements don't actually require live fire. It also requires Scout to successfully complete State hunters safety course. There are already very strict requirements for safe storage of rifles, shotguns and others used in shooting sports program they may need to add a lock, IDK. Also, this would only affect NY not entire BSA shooting sports program.

All I know about the rifle badges is how I did it 20 some odd years ago at Babcock Hovey. Basically a dozen or more kids under the supervision of 2 or 3 adults with live fire. I don't think that would fly under this storage law because there is no way the adults could maintain "immediate possession or control" over every rifle on that range. That is what is required by this storage law. Likewise, competitions would require the "custodian" to be within arms reach of the minor and weapon as, I think, that is what the legal meaning of "immediate possession or control" is.

The exemptions PL 265.20, do not apply to this new law. The sections affected by this new law are NOT currently listed under 265.20 and the law does not add the affected sections to the exemption list as far as I can tell. You and your kid won't be guilty of criminal possession of a weapon but you will be guilty of Failure to Safely Store. If a child or prohibited person resides with you, it will be a class A Misdemeanor. Otherwise, it is a violation that carries a $250 fine.

Bottom line is, if you give your 15 year old a gun so that she can do something with it other than hunting AND you get far enough from that gun so that you can no longer be said to be in "immediate possession or control" you could be looking at up to a year.

kev74 said:
Here's the bill as passed by the Assembly and Senate, and awaiting Monkeyface's signature.

New York State Assembly | Bill Search and Legislative Information

Yeah, it looks like I found the original Senate version first. Looks like the Senate version was amended to be equivalent to the Assembly version before it was voted on in the Senate. Then the Assembly just substituted and passed the Senate version.

Monkeyface doesn't have it yet according to the Senate status and I'm not sure why. Probably just waiting for a school shooting so he can make headlines. Unfortunately, I now think it's too late to push for changes.

cgrutt · Apr 23, 2019

ManrisFrack said:
All I know about the rifle badges is how I did it 20 some odd years ago at Babcock Hovey. Basically a dozen or more kids under the supervision of 2 or 3 adults with live fire. I don't think that would fly under this storage law because there is no way the adults could maintain "immediate possession or control" over every rifle on that range. That is what is required by this storage law. Likewise, competitions would require the "custodian" to be within arms reach of the minor and weapon as, I think, that is what the legal meaning of "immediate possession or control" is.

The exemptions PL 265.20, do not apply to this new law. The sections affected by this new law are NOT currently listed under 265.20 and the law does not add the affected sections to the exemption list as far as I can tell. You and your kid won't be guilty of criminal possession of a weapon but you will be guilty of Failure to Safely Store. If a child or prohibited person resides with you, it will be a class A Misdemeanor. Otherwise, it is a violation that carries a $250 fine.

Bottom line is, if you give your 15 year old a gun so that she can do something with it other than hunting AND you get far enough from that gun so that you can no longer be said to be in "immediate possession or control" you could be looking at up to a year.

Yeah, it looks like I found the original Senate version first. Looks like the Senate version was amended to be equivalent to the Assembly version before it was voted on in the Senate. Then the Assembly just substituted and passed the Senate version.

Monkeyface doesn't have it yet according to the Senate status and I'm not sure why. Probably just waiting for a school shooting so he can make headlines. Unfortunately, I now think it's too late to push for changes.

I dont know I'm not a lawyer but the way I understand it this bill is addressing storage and access by "unauthorized" people not use at a firing range during a sanctioned event. Minors under 16 are prohibited from possession under 265.05 but there is an exemption that allows a 12 to 15 year old to shoot under supervision. I believe this is what is relevant as far as BSA shooting sports program is concerned which would allow scouts between ages of 12 to 15 to shoot at BSA ranges under proper supervision. I know from first hand experience the BSA takes this very seriously. My take is if a minor under 16 somehow managed to take possession of a gun that was not properly stored under new provision the custodian of such gun could be charged for failure to store it properly. That's my take on it and really dont believe shooting sports program or rifle merit badges are in jeopardy within NYS if signed into law. My $0.02.

Btw not that it means anything but did alot of work for this...

GoodGuywitha9mm · Apr 23, 2019

Screw them. I am an RSO and an NRA Instructor for Rifle & Pistol. Both were required for me to become a BSA Merit Badge Counselor for the .22 Rifle Merit Badge. BSA has rigorous requirements to become and maintain my status as a counselor and instructor, including training requirements involving all in-person, electronic, and telephone contact with Scouts.

Had these morons spent quality time with peers as children before becoming a bunch of idiot peer groups as adults, they may have learned more about the sport of shooting, instead of thinking up ways to fuck up the future of our kids and their common interests and desires.

To address the earlier question about the requirements (Reference: Rifle Shooting - MeritBadgeDotOrg) of the badge and live fire, the scout must be able to shoot Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.
They may alternatively use a BB gun or pellet air rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 15 feet for BB guns or 33 feet for air rifles, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter. While this method can negate the need for using a .22, these kids LOVE shooting a rifle!
A third alternative is to use a muzzle-loading rifle of any caliber and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft soft drink can. They must center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard targets—7; (2) at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100 yard targets—7. I have not seen this used despite being an alternative though.

My kid is now looking forward to the Shotgun Merit Badge... Don't fuck it up Andy. Karma is already going to twist that whole plastic bag ban on you. lol

cgrutt · Apr 23, 2019

@GoodGuywitha9mm good on you! Just for clarification I know live fire (or alternative) is one of the requirements for Rifle merit badge I was just making point that most of the requirements for badge don't actually involve live fire (eg knowing and demonstrating gun safety, etc)

ManrisFrack · Apr 23, 2019

I'm not a lawyer either. But the law only says what it says. It makes ZERO mention of where these section do or do not apply. I would think that means they apply everywhere - even at ranges, sanctioned matches and events. My take is that you're fine as long as you're within arms reach of the gun. How's that going to work with a high school trap match? All it would take is one mom demanding action and pointing out to the board that, technically, they're breaking the law at every match and every practice.

Either way, looks like we're going to find out which take is right.

GoodGuywitha9mm · Apr 23, 2019

cgrutt said:
@GoodGuywitha9mm good on you! Just for clarification I know live fire (or alternative) is one of the requirements for Rifle merit badge I was just making point that most of the requirements for badge don't actually involve live fire (eg knowing and demonstrating gun safety, etc)

I didn't mean to imply you thought live fire wasn't part of the badge. I get fired up over this shit, so sometimes I don't proof read as well as I could. lol

cgrutt · Apr 23, 2019

ManrisFrack said:
I'm not a lawyer either. But the law only says what it says. It makes ZERO mention of where these section do or do not apply. I would think that means they apply everywhere - even at ranges, sanctioned matches and events. My take is that you're fine as long as you're within arms reach of the gun. How's that going to work with a high school trap match? All it would take is one mom demanding action and pointing out to the board that, technically, they're breaking the law at every match and every practice.

Either way, looks like we're going to find out which take is right.

Well if you dont reside with a minor under 16 the entire provision doesn't apply and if you do have them get a hunters license and it wont apply either. That's what it says, right?

kev74 · Apr 23, 2019

cgrutt said:
Well if you dont reside with a minor under 16 the entire provision doesn't apply and if you do have them get a hunters license and it wont apply either. That's what it says, right?

I think it means that every day I care a little less about if I'm breaking any stupid laws.

BDinPutnam · Apr 23, 2019

FUAC and NRA hand in glove once again.

ManrisFrack · Apr 24, 2019

cgrutt said:
Well if you dont reside with a minor under 16 the entire provision doesn't apply and if you do have them get a hunters license and it wont apply either. That's what it says, right?

Or prohibited person, yes. The bill does add section 265.50 though. This section lacks the residence requirement and is a violation punishable by a fine of up to $250.

Hunting license exemption only appears to apply while using the gun in accordance with article 11 of the environmental conservation law

"The possession of a rifle or shotgun by a person less than sixteen years of age who is the holder of a hunting license or permit issued pursuant to article eleven of the environmental conservation law when used in accordance with such law shall not be governed by this section."

I haven't read the entirety of article 11 but my guess is that it doesn't mention competitions or target shooting unless referring to the state lands where it is permitted.

To be honest, I think this law is so poorly written that if you live with a minor or prohibited person, you can't even legally leave your gun under your stand while you drag a deer out. Doesn't matter if you don't have a minor or prohibited person within ten miles when you do it. It's preposterous but I think that's what they've written.

ETA: Link to what I think is the latest version. It's impossible to find using the NYS Senate site's search function. NY State Senate Bill S2450A

prambo · Apr 24, 2019

Leftists have destroyed the Boy Scouts using their favorite technique...

1. Infiltrate a respected institution

2. Kill it

3. Gut it

4. Wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

5. Walk away when it's finally dead.

I took training as a Scoutmaster in the early 80s and was an Asst. Scoutmaster in MD then after we moved to Kenya. It's very sad. Just another dead body on the side of the highway to Marxist hell.

MuttCat · Apr 24, 2019

FUAC. And his ass hat cronies. Personally, I'm done with what used to be the great Boy Scout organization.

masterswimmer · Apr 24, 2019

Our local Assemblyman's response to discuss this was:

On Apr 23, 2019, at 2:07 PM, Colin Schmitt <schmittc@nyassembly.gov> wrote:

I voted NO

It passed and will be the law of the land when the Gov signs it

Sent from my iPhone

GoodGuywitha9mm · Apr 24, 2019

As usual, a tough read BUT - it appears to exempt among other things .22's and school programs! I will continue to pick it apart...

New York Consolidated Laws, Environmental Conservation Law - ENV § 11-0931 | FindLaw

New York Consolidated Laws, Environmental Conservation Law - ENV § 11-0931. Prohibitions on the use and possession of firearms
(some portions omitted if they didn't seem to apply to our discussion)

1. No person except a law enforcement officer in the performance of his official duties shall use in hunting or possess in the fields or forests or on the waters of the state for any purpose:
c. any auto-loading firearm of a construction to contain more than six shells in the magazine and chamber combined, except

(1) such a firearm using twenty-two caliber rim-fire ammunition, or ...

4. a. No person shall:
(2) discharge a firearm within five hundred feet, a long bow within one hundred fifty feet, or a crossbow within two hundred fifty feet from a dwelling house, farm building or farm structure actually occupied or used, school building, school playground, public structure, or occupied factory or church;
b. The prohibitions contained in subparagraph 2 of paragraph a above shall not apply to:

(2) Programs conducted by public schools offering instruction and training in the use of firearms or long bow;

(3) The authorized use of a pistol, rifle or target range regularly operated and maintained by a police department or other law enforcement agency or by any duly organized membership corporation;

ManrisFrack · Apr 25, 2019

Thanks for doing the legwork I was too lazy for @GoodGuywitha9mm.

Actually I have to reverse my position on the hunting license exemption. Laws prohibit and regulated specific actions. If an action (such as target shooting) is not mentioned or regulated by the law, you are acting in accordance with that law by default. I don't think any particular law has ANY bearing on actions that it does not specifically mention.

'You can do only what the law allows' mindset versus 'You are free do to as you like unless specifically prohibited' mindset.

Shadow2 · Apr 25, 2019

I've always felt the boy scouts where gay as shit but to each their own ...

Acer-m14 · Apr 26, 2019

GoodGuywitha9mm said:
1. No person except a law enforcement officer in the performance of his official duties shall use in hunting or possess in the fields or forests or on the waters of the state for any purpose:

the States property .. ( State Land ) .. or did FUAC just claim all land in the State is his and only his ?? ..

and then this .. WTF ?? Looks like the King FUAC just took all are land and it now his ..

GoodGuywitha9mm said:
4. a. No person shall:
(2) discharge a firearm within five hundred feet, a long bow within one hundred fifty feet, or a crossbow within two hundred fifty feet from a dwelling house, farm building or farm structure actually occupied or used,

did they just remove the without permission part ??? no more sniping out of the used cow barn .. shooting off your neighbors back deck .. ect ??

FUAC ..

ManrisFrack · Apr 26, 2019

Acer-m14 said:
the States property .. ( State Land ) .. or did FUAC just claim all land in the State is his and only his ?? ..

and then this .. WTF ?? Looks like the King FUAC just took all are land and it now his ..

did they just remove the without permission part ??? no more sniping out of the used cow barn .. shooting off your neighbors back deck .. ect ??

FUAC ..

That's still in there:

Section 4.

b. The prohibitions contained in subparagraph 2 of paragraph a above shall not apply to:

(1) The owner or lessee of the dwelling house, or members of his immediate family actually residing therein, or a person in his employ, or the guest of the owner or lessee of the dwelling house acting with the consent of said owner or lessee, provided however, that nothing herein shall be deemed to authorize such persons to discharge a firearm within five hundred feet, a long bow within one hundred fifty feet, or a crossbow within two hundred fifty feet of any other dwelling house, or a farm building or farm structure actually occupied or used, or a school building or playground, public structure, or occupied factory or church;

RDN · Apr 26, 2019

Carlos Hathcock said:
The continued pussification of our country.

No just the gun-grabbing states like NY, CA, MA, NJ, CT, HI and I think IL

When the "Socialist" take over there will be no left w/ the ability to effectively defend themselves w/ guns

end of Boy Scouts shooting merit badge?

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