Handgun stopping power, lack of it. Police video

[Marine Cpl]

In my line of work it kinda is huge. Where I'm usually working with less than 0.0005.

I guess in Holdover's GoPerfect's, and 71velle's line of work it's gigantic too. Who am I to say different.

If that gigantic size difference makes a difference to them, then why not a .454 Casull? That extra .001 may make all the difference on a human.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Good 45 ammo can expand to 1.0 inch which is 25% bigger than the best 9mm at .75.

I guess you still haven't read the manual. Expansion doesn't kill. Penetration does. So if a bullet expands to. 80 and falls short it isn't a stopper compared to one that doesn't expand and doesn't fall short. But that's a whole other thread regarding hollow points.

 

[71velle]

I guess you still haven't read the manual. Expansion doesn't kill. Penetration does. So if a bullet expands to. 80 and falls short it isn't a stopper compared to one that doesn't expand and doesn't fall short. But that's a whole other thread regarding hollow points.

Quoted from your source

Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.

Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet .

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness.
It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss.

Ranger T expands to 1 inch and average penetration of 14.5 inches which is well over your FBI ballistic Bible specification.

You need to read the manual!!!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Quoted from your source

Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.

Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet .

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness.
It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss.

Ranger T expands to 1 inch and average penetration of 14.5 inches which is well over your FBI ballistic Bible specification.

You need to read the manual!!!!

Read the first sentence you highlighted. Now what happens if behind a hard barrier and it doesn't get that adequate penetration?

Now on to the 2nd sentence. Given adequate penetration. See the first highlighted sentence again.

And you highlighted the 3rd sentence without highlighing the sentence before it. It states that it has to be close to a blood vessel that the smaller caliber missed. That means that if you are not, the slightly bigger projectile still missed a blood vessel. So if it's not, you have to fire again. So now we are back to the capacity argument.

But if you read the whole thing, it clearly states that only shots to vitals immediately stop. Blood vessels aren't vitals.

 

[holdover]

That settles it then.

.12 is a big motherfucker.

Its 12% Its makes a difference , your opinion doesn't.

 

[holdover]

Read the first sentence you highlighted. Now what happens if behind a hard barrier and it doesn't get that adequate penetration?

Now on to the 2nd sentence. Given adequate penetration. See the first highlighted sentence again.

And you highlighted the 3rd sentence without highlighting the sentence before it. It states that it has to be close to a blood vessel that the smaller caliber missed. That means that if you are not, the slightly bigger projectile still missed a blood vessel. So if it's not, you have to fire again. So now we are back to the capacity argument.

But if you read the whole thing, it clearly states that only shots to vitals immediately stop. Blood vessels aren't vitals.

Holy shit! I hope you don't miss your targets as much as you miss the point. The point of self defense rounds is stopping the threat first , not barrier penetration. the 45 is better at this task . This has been demonstrated in your FBI report

Barrier penetration is a secondary concern not a first. Over penetration slices through targets with smaller wound channels ,ie" less effect. If the goal is to stop the threat, not shoot through the door , the larger round is better suited for the job .That's according to the FBI and your source.

Variables such as proper cover,target range, and vests can come into play also . we can add all kinds of variables. but that was never the question. the question was which round creates a larger wound. and more likely to stop the threat.The 45. the question has been answered .The 45 has been demonstrated and tested to leave a larger channel, and crush more tissue . Your arguing about tactical considerations which may or may not be a factor in a given situation. your opinion that 12% isn't a significant factor is bullshit. it makes a 12% difference. That can mean the difference of life or death. life or death may be determined by that 12%. If I told you there was a 12% chance that the brakes on your car may fail completely would you think that its nothing to worry about? would tell your wife and kids its Ok to use the car because 12% is nothing to worry about? Its not insignificant when someone is shooting at you.In those frozen seconds of time , 12% may mean going home or not. How many times have you heard a doctor say if it was a fraction of an inch closer you wouldn't be here right now? fractions of an inch can become a massive difference .

 

[holdover]

I guess you still haven't read the manual. Expansion doesn't kill. Penetration does. .

Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration.-FBI

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness.

(the 45 has adequate penetration, I don't want to hear how it doesn't unless you have demonstrations proving it. )


a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so.-FBI

The round which destroys 0.07% of the target will incapacitate more often
than the one which destroys 0.04%.-FBI

The differences between bullets may be small, but science can give us the means of identifying
that difference. The result is the edge all of law enforcement should be looking for.
Even if that edge is only 1%, it is not insignificant because
the guy trying to kill you could be in that 1%, and you won’t know it until it is too late.-FBI



No, you haven't read the manual .Then why don't they use steel rounds? Somehow you completely ignore the laws of physics and make ridiculous claims you cherry picked from the FBI. penetration is just factor , it is not the standard of effectiveness. its just a factor of it.

 

[Celt]

That settles it then.

.12 is a big motherfucker.

Thats what she said.

 

[Celt]

Realistically speaking guys, whether you choose 9, 40, or 45 they are all so close in "stopping power" that it boils down to personal preference. In states without capacity restrictions i think that higher capacity of any of these is the best bet, but with equal capacity i say what ever you shoot better is the way to go.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Holy shit! I hope you don't miss your targets as much as you miss the point. The point of self defense rounds is stopping the threat first , not barrier penetration. the 45 is better at this task . This has been demonstrated in your FBI report

Barrier penetration is a secondary concern not a first. Over penetration slices through targets with smaller wound channels ,ie" less effect. If the goal is to stop the threat, not shoot through the door , the larger round is better suited for the job .That's according to the FBI and your source.

Variables such as proper cover,target range, and vests can come into play also . we can add all kinds of variables. but that was never the question. the question was which round creates a larger wound. and more likely to stop the threat.The 45. the question has been answered .The 45 has been demonstrated and tested to leave a larger channel, and crush more tissue . Your arguing about tactical considerations which may or may not be a factor in a given situation. your opinion that 12% isn't a significant factor is bullshit. it makes a 12% difference. That can mean the difference of life or death. life or death may be determined by that 12%. If I told you there was a 12% chance that the brakes on your car may fail completely would you think that its nothing to worry about? would tell your wife and kids its Ok to use the car because 12% is nothing to worry about? Its not insignificant when someone is shooting at you.In those frozen seconds of time , 12% may mean going home or not. How many times have you heard a doctor say if it was a fraction of an inch closer you wouldn't be here right now? fractions of an inch can become a massive difference .

The report itself mirrors everything I've always said about overpenetration before. That's a myth too. But that's another thread. We can start another one if you like regarding it and hollow points.

The thing you refuse to acknowledge is that energy dump for pistols is a non factor for stopping a target and the size of the hole at .12 of an inch larger "see pictures above" or smaller is a non factor as well. You have to take into consideration what stopping a threat actually is. We aren't shooting here for the target to bleed out minutes or even hours later. We are shooting here to stop. The only thing that stops someone is penetration to vitals. Not nicking an artery.

The only thing the .45 has going for it is the slight size difference in soft tissue. The whole if it was a fraction of an inch closer argument. Again that's for nicking a vital organ if nicking a vital organs actually destroy the organ. Not nicking an artery.

Again, the only thing that "STOPS" a threat is penetration to vitals. Not damage to surrounding soft tissue or an artery to bleed out later.

And barrier penetration is a real thing. Sure it's secondary. But it's not secondary if having to shoot at a moving vehicle mowing down a crowd or shooting through some other barrier in a store or nightclub at an active shooter situation.

And why no armor piercing rounds? Liability. The same reason hollow points are used. But again, that's another thread.

 

[holdover]

Ok, you win. Im convinced.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ok, you win. Im convinced.

No. You win!

 

[holdover]

NO,NO you win , Im swayed!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Energy?

 

[Cooolone]

It's actually "energy" that has stopping power. The cavity created will only dictate time to bleed out. Or should the military stop using those silly little .223/5.56 rounds etc. Penetration allows the possibility of hitting a vital organ or nerve center and cause immediate effect as well. But energy does more, it causes blunt force tissue damage, tears organs, veins, arteries, shatters bones, etc. Forensic science shows us much.

Honestly, these discussions are silly in my mind, but happen often. The "BEST" shot or caliber is one that'll let you "PUT" the bullet where you intend it to go! Shot "placement" rules!

The OP article is useless as it highlights the stopping power of a single shot hitting its target. The officer was negligent in ending the threat by stopping his shooting and looking to see what his shot had done, admiring his work so to say. If the perp had a gun would probably not be doing well. The other officer standing there should not be in uniform.

Anyways...

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Just a friendly reminder. This all stemmed from a target that was shot with no armor in the stomach. Let's go from there and not hypotheticals.

 

[dsdmmat]

Just a friendly reminder. This all stemmed from a target that was shot with no armor in the stomach. Let's go from there and not hypotheticals.

Come now there has to be a rabbit hole or a squirrel around here somewhere.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Just a friendly reminder. This all stemmed from a target that was shot with no armor in the stomach. Let's go from there and not hypotheticals.

And what did the energy do in that case?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

And what did the energy do in that case?

We don't know anything about the gun, caliber, where exactly the shot hit him or what condition he was in.

 

[Marine Cpl]

We don't know anything about the gun, caliber, where exactly the shot hit him or what condition he was in.

9mm hollow points is what the department carries. Load unknown. Source Wikipedia.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

9mm hollow points is what the department carries. Load unknown. Source Wikipedia.

Ok so what happened? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ok so what happened? Your guess is as good as mine.

Non vital area. The same result would have happened with that particular dude with any other pistol caliber.

Some people are affected psychologically and stop and others don't give a crap and will fight until a hit to vitals stops them.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Non vital area.

Some people are affected psychologically and stop and others don't give a crap and will fight until a hit to vitals stops them.

^^^I agree with this.

The same result would have happened with that particular dude with any other pistol caliber.

^^^You can't say this definitively. At least not without going back in time and shooting the guy in the same exact spot and the bullet going in the same exact path.

 

[CaseHardened]

Opinion on the Tokarev ?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Opinion on the Tokarev ?

I have an m57 and pps43 sbr. They are fun as shit.

 

[CaseHardened]

I have an m57 and pps43 sbr. They are fun as shit.

I really like my M57.

Shoots real nice.

Way too heavy to CC, tho. IMHO.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I really like my M57.

Shoots real nice.

Way too heavy to CC, tho. IMHO.

You think so? I'd have to weight it but I can swear it's lighter than a g19

 

[CaseHardened]

You think so? I'd have to weight it but I can swear it's lighter than a g19

For me, it is just something to keep handy in situations where I may have some advance warning.

Like my Shotgun.

I mean, who is CC a shotgun ?

But for ultimate Home Defense, a Shotgun is hard to beat.

Especially a 15 round KSG Bullpup.

 

[Marine Cpl]

^^^You can't say this definitively. At least not without going back in time and shooting the guy in the same exact spot and the bullet going in the same exact path.

Assuming the bullet hit in the exact same place with another caliber I say the exact result would have happened. They aren't that much bigger than one another.

That has been my point all along in this thread.

 

[Acer-m14]

maybe we should ask the mom that got carjacked with her kids in the car what she used .. oh she shot him in the head .. maybe soft tissue is not the spot to
shot at .. sarcasm hehee ..