In the caliber wars this was a mustard gas attack!

[Marine Cpl]

11 vs 6 is a good argument, you'll get no fight from me on that. That isn't always the case though. 11 in a gun that maxes out at 11 vs 11 in a gun that can have 18 with a normal mag is less compelling.

I'm taking about a Glock 26 vs something like an XDS.

My 26 can actually max out at 14 with an extension. It can even accept a 33 rounder. A 19 with a 10 round magazine can accept a 17 rd magazine compared to a Glock of the. 45 flavor that'll max out at about 13.

 

[Uzi]

As I said in another thread, all ACP rounds have one thing in common. .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .380 ACP, and .45 ACP are all slow as molasses.

None of those rounds can penetrate anything hard that requires speed.

I guess suv's, auto glass, cement blocks, windshields, metal sheets, refrigerators and things like that aren't hard enough objects. Damn, are we talking sci fi body armor or something? where do I get it!!

 

[Marine Cpl]

I guess suv's, auto glass, cement blocks, windshields, metal sheets, refrigerators and things like that aren't hard enough objects. Damn, are we talking sci fi body armor or something? where do I get it!!

Not all are created equal. Some are harder than others. You also have bricks, 2 sides of a trunk, auto glass followed by seats, ect.

All that went into account during FBI testing. Had any of the ACP rounds been adequate, it may have been considered.

 

[spat]

I'm taking about a Glock 26 vs something like an XDS.

My 26 can actually max out at 14 with an extension. It can even accept a 33 rounder. A 19 with a 10 round magazine can accept a 17 rd magazine compared to a Glock of the. 45 flavor that'll max out at about 13.

Sure, but not in NY. Your 26 maxes out at 10 same as mine. Compare it to a g30 and it's no advantage

Compare Pistols | GLOCK USA

That's the point.

 

[Uzi]

Not all are created equal. Some are harder than others. You also have bricks, 2 sides of a trunk, auto glass followed by seats, ect.

All that went into account during FBI testing. Had any of the ACP rounds been adequate, it may have been considered.

Adequate for what? shooting someone through a building or bus?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Sure, but not in NY. Your 26 maxes out at 10 same as mine. Compare it to a g30 and it's no advantage

Compare Pistols | GLOCK USA

That's the point.

Oh. But yes it does even if I stay lawful. We can both be behind equal barriers and mine will penetrate your barrier.

I'll be safe even wearing a helm I borrow from Game of Thrones.

 

[spat]

Oh. But yes it does even if I stay lawful. We can both be behind equal barriers and mine will penetrate your barrier.

I'll be safe even wearing a helm I borrow from Game of Thrones.

You're g26 will penetrate better than mine ?

I don't actually own a .45, but if suppressors became legal it would move up the list quickly.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Adequate for what? shooting someone through a building or bus?

Perhaps he's firing at you from a thin retaining wall, or he's using cars as cover and your round goes through 2 sides of a trunk, or you are at the Pulse night club locked in the bathroom and have to shoot through an aluminum stall door.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You're g26 will penetrate better than mine ?

I don't actually own a .45, but if suppressors became legal it would move up the list quickly.

I meant the 30 of the ACP variety that holds 10 rounds.

 

[spat]

Perhaps he's firing at you from a thin retaining wall, or he's using cars as cover and your round goes through 2 sides of a trunk, or you are at the Pulse night club locked in the bathroom and have to shoot through an aluminum stall door.

Most likely these days are you are standing in a crowd at a parade and the BG starts driving a truck at you......

 

[Marine Cpl]

I meant the 30 of the ACP variety that holds 10 rounds.

You can suppress a nine with 147 grains.

 

[Uzi]

Perhaps he's firing at you from a thin retaining wall, or he's using cars as cover and your round goes through 2 sides of a trunk, or you are at the Pulse night club locked in the bathroom and have to shoot through an aluminum stall door.

Interesting scenarios. Do you actively train for these types of self defense shootouts as a civilian, or is it for personal preference due to ballistic capabilities?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Most likely these days are you are standing in a crowd at a parade and the BG starts driving a truck at you......

And wouldn't you want a round with more velocity then?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Interesting scenarios. Do you actively train for these types of self defense shootouts as a civilian, or is it for personal preference due to ballistic capabilities?

Personal preference due to ballistic capabilities. I don't have the time to train but I can hit what I need to within 20 or so yards to an extent and I know how to clear rooms and take cover behind barriers. My rounds may not be touching but they'll be scattered in the chest area.

It isn't rocket science.

 

[spat]

And wouldn't you want a round with more velocity then?

Sure, I was just pointing out that a windshield is a common barrier to need to shoot through these days.

If you dodged and the guy is still knocking innocents around like bowling pins, you may want something that goes through doors too.....

 

[Uzi]

Personal preference due to ballistic capabilities. I don't have the time to train but I can hit what I need to within 20 or so yards and I know how to clear rooms and take cover behind barriers.

It isn't rocket science.

You're right, it's not rocket science. If I had a penny for how many people don't stop to think about the difference between real cover and concealment, I might be able to get a candy bar soon. Or what about those thinking standing near a drivers or passengers side door is a wise idea and will offer them good barrier protection when there's a solid steel or alloy wheel sitting low right next to them.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You're right, it's not rocket science. If I had a penny for how many people don't stop to think about the difference between real cover and concealment, I might be able to get a candy bar soon. Or what about those thinking standing near a drivers or passengers side door is a wise idea and will offer them good barrier protection when there's a solid steel or alloy wheel sitting low right next to them.

I've always wanted to ask, do you have an Uzi or did you have to get rid of it?

 

[4excal]

Ahhh my work here is complete. Revitalized a dead thread with a Hollywood movie, to see who is the "caliber war monger" @Willjr75 with 12 of the following 20 posts after my Resident Evil posts yours, you win! Step right up and claim your prize..a box of 45ACP.

 

[Uzi]

I've always wanted to ask, do you have an Uzi or did you have to get rid of it?

I don't currently own an Uzi.

Originally my name for these forums was actually going to be "MAC" for Military Armament Corporation, because I'm a mac, rpb, mpa, cobray, etc fan too, But that never had the same ring to it, ya know? I think at the time, the name was taken anyways. The Uzi has significance to me because it was the very first submachine gun that I've ever used. Frankly, It was also one of the worst as well in terms of enjoyment and accuracy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed shooting it, but it falls short compared to other submachine guns, machine pistols and pdw's I've used in comparison. I didn't like how heavy the bolt was compared to its slow cyclic rate. The new Uzi pro is butt ugly looking and doesn't at all resonate with me the way the old school designs did either. Right now I own a Mac 11 variant pistol, which satisfies me very well. I know that I like the retro sheet metal designs the most. I can fit cobray parts and use sten gun magazines with it. My favorite Uzi is and always was the Micro Uzi machine pistol.The Micro semi pistol version made by Uzi is very rare and hard to come by. I might be able to find one, one day, but the price will probably be outrageous. Having said that, I like any variation of the Mac 10, 11 and 12 variants just as much if not more than civilian marketed uzi's. When I shot the open bolt mac 10 suppressed FA with it's gigantic can, it was an amazing experience, much better than the uzi too at the end of the day. I haven't used the micro uzi though, I'm betting it's quite enjoyable as well. Expensive though, it's a novelty that I don't really need, but very cool and fun to talk about.

 

[meketrefe]

Will,
I don't see it like that. I think a lot of people like 40 and 45 because in the end they are good shooting with them that
is the most important thing. I always say if you have a very compact CC pistol and can have 7 or 8 rounds of heavy bullets
that might put some substantial momentum on the target and compensate with the otherwise lack of speed.
I also see the beauty in score shooting and the weight and size of the pistol vs. firepower is not as important as how
it feels for that type of use and scenario.
If one has a tactical need you are going to see modern calibers and ammo and modern pistol that can take high pressures
with high capacity count. 10+1 in NY is a shame unless you are law enforcement, privileged class or a gangster in NY but in
terms of effectiveness still is a very effective formula given the limitations specially in a CC type of role.
The caliber arguments and wounding potential wars are all quite boring at this point. If one is so worried about the
best choice of caliber for fast and flat shooting one should be even more worried about investing a considerable amount
of time and money in professional training that is the actual key to be very effective. When one gets to that point
one will have a modern cartridge with a modern pistol that is necessary for that kind of effectiveness but of course not the only
means to be the best one can be.
Americans are obsessed with size but in the end we learn that more times than not, less becomes more in the end.
You know "30 cal" this, "50 cal" that and little understanding of ballistics really.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm not sure what you are getting at @meketrefe. I'm not saying that if you like a .45, you shouldn't own one. What I'm saying is that tactically speaking it doesn't compare to the other rounds yet people fool themselves into thinking that it's superior.

I'm not tactical. Why should it matter? I'm not a cop! That's true enough but cops aren't always there when your back is against a wall. You may very well be the only one there to end a threat hell bent on killing you if he isn't killed. He may be behind a barrier.

As far as grain goes for short barrels, that doesn't solve the barrier problem. In fact, it makes it worse. Even with the lowly 9mm, you can get 1200 fps out of a 3 inch barrel depending on the round. 700 fps from a high grained .45 from a short 3 inch barrel will do well on soft tissue but not so on metal. That's like saying to keep adding grain to the Blackout to make it better.

As far as shooting a .45 better.... Most people will shoot a 9mm better if they are good with a .45. Take an XDS for example, the felt recoil is almost double from the same platform.