Looming north korean threat

[spat]

Doubling the tariff is the exact same thing. Once Chinese prices are high, other countries will undercut and compete for the business. The ban is just more "in your face" even if the result is the same. I kind of like the "I don't take shit" approach because it sends a more aggressive message. USSR had huge manufacturing capability - we could say "fuck you" to China, and sit down with Putin and architect a new world order without China in the world mix. I'd rather boost Russia and relegate China to the status of "also-rans".

It is, but not as drastic a shock to the economy. Goods that you can't get from somewhere else you can still get, just with a strong incentive to find, or create an alternate source.

It is much easier for the economy to adjust to changes in cost than it is to an abrupt elimination of supply, even if the net change after several years is very similar.

 

[Snappo]

It is, but not as drastic a shock to the economy. Goods that you can't get from somewhere else you can still get, just with a strong incentive to find, or create an alternate source.

It is much easier for the economy to adjust to changes in cost than it is to an abrupt elimination of supply, even if the net change after several years is very similar.

I'm fine with either approach; since the end result should theoretically be China taking care of the NK problem. Sadly, Trump has no balls whatsoever for this kind of international conflict. All he knows about is building golf courses and large buildings. I'd say he understood gambling and airline industries as well; but he bankrupted in those endeavors 4 times and cost his lenders $5 Billion in total.

 

[Doc8404]

[video]

if only we could keep this thing in operation!
USS Zumwalt

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

If this is true that NK is either developing MIRVs or THAAD counter measures they are even more dangerous than expected.

North Korean missile may be able to carry SEVERAL nukes | Daily Mail Online

 

[Snappo]

If this is true that NK is either developing MIRVs or THAAD counter measures they are even more dangerous than expected.

North Korean missile may be able to carry SEVERAL nukes | Daily Mail Online

The question that needs to be asked though - if NK has nukes will they use them on anyone?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

The question that needs to be asked though - if NK has nukes will they use them on anyone?

The only person in charge of them fed his uncle to hungry dogs, used VX gas on his brother and regularly kills generals with anti aircraft guns. Every school aged kid in the ckuntry takes field trips to the Americans are evil and Inhuman bastards museums.

Yea I think he would.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/how-north-korean-children-are-taught-hate-americans-632334?amp=1

Sinchon Museum of American War Atrocities - Wikipedia

 

[Snappo]

The only person in charge of them fed his uncle to hungry dogs, used VX gas on his brother and regularly kills generals with anti aircraft guns. Every school aged kid in the ckuntry takes field trips to the Americans are evil and Inhuman bastards museums.

Yea I think he would.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/how-north-korean-children-are-taught-hate-americans-632334?amp=1

Sinchon Museum of American War Atrocities - Wikipedia

Then if that is the case, there are only two possible outcomes. In one possible outcome NK uses nukes against one or more countries. In the other outcome; other countries preemptively erase that NK government. The question is - can that government be eradicated without war? While I feel it is (rather remotely) possible for China to force them into free elections; I do not see they have much interest in pursuing that major effort. So that leaves it to someone melting their capital during one of those military parades when the government is in attendance.

 

[Snappo]

Sinchon Museum of American War Atrocities - Wikipedia

I believe the Sinchon Massacre happened. I think every historian does. The question of "who did it?" will never be answered, but America (and her parent country, England) does have a history of raping and executing entire villages "just for the fuck of it". Never that magnitude though. Sinchon, Rape of Nanjing, etc - all very huge attrocities. With regard to USA; maybe less atrocious overall.

Here is one such example from when I was growing up:
My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia

Also during the Korean War - the No Gun Ri massacre:
No Gun Ri massacre - Wikipedia

WW II events:
Laconia Massacre
Laconia incident - Wikipedia

Canicatti Massacre
Canicattì massacre - Wikipedia

Dachau Liberation massacre
Dachau liberation reprisals - Wikipedia

Here is one from the 1700's when we loaded Indians up with Small Pox using blankets as gifts.
Colonial Germ Warfare

 

[Arjuna]

http://nypost.com/2017/07/09/north-korea-criticizes-us-for-reckless-military-provocations/

 

[Snappo]

http://nypost.com/2017/07/09/north-korea-criticizes-us-for-reckless-military-provocations/

I have a really hard time taking the NY Post seriously. Good only for comics and sports; the rest of that rag is basically National Enquirer; but with a focus on politics rather than Hollyweird.

 

[Blimey]

It's evident now that the ICBM test will go unanswered militarily. NK has now tested multiple nuclear devices, none of which resulted in military response. NK has now tested multiple missiles including an ICBM, which has resulted in no military response.

NK has thus been able to test all the components it needs to test to eventually create a small fleet of nuclear tipped ICBMs and with no testing resulting in anything other than sanctions, it appears to me that NK is well poised to keep charging toward its eventual end point.

I'm not privy to what the joints chiefs and everybody else tells Trump behind closed doors, but I can say it makes the US look like a little bitch if, after decades of saying we wouldn't tolerate a nuclear NK, we end up seeing one because we are unwilling to enforce our own policy. Trump is talking about further sanctions now, which will do exactly, precisely nothing at all to dissuade NK from being a legitimate nuclear power. Trump says he doesn't do red lines, but his policy is to not have a nuclear armed NK, and I see no evidence he's actually willing to do the only thing 100% of us know must be done to stop it. Mark my words: Kim Jong Un will absolutely not abandon his nuclear program unless he is forced to either by military intervention of he's thrown off a bridge by somebody in his regime. Sanctions are such a waste of time I don't know why we'd even bother.

If the US is unwilling to enforce its policy in the only way it can be enforced we should question further why we are even paying for 30k troops at the DMZ. Does anybody truly believe NK is going to invade? Why not take these troops home and if they start to mass up at the border maybe send some back. it seems a pointless expense, particularly since if NK every did invade (and it would lose against SK's superior military even without our assistance), they'd have to march through the DMZ which would be turned into an inferno. Maybe it's time to bail on the entire thing, bring the troops home. The US's policy in Korea has been like its policy against Cuba: Multi-decades and thoroughly ineffective.

 

[Snappo]

The reason ISIS, AQ, Boko Haram, North Korea, HAMAS, Sudanese Army, and others are not afraid of us is because all we do is bitch and moan and threaten to stop giving them things they don't need like $50K cars or $800 Kenmore window air conditioning units. North Korea doesn't even have electricity in 99% of the country. They don't give a fuck if Trump and Obama didn't want them to have window A/C units or whatever modern snowflake convenience we are withholding. Trump is every bit as useless as Obama was. I am beyond unimpressed. I thought he would be in over his head; and I was right. I am disappointed - I had hoped I would be wrong; since I love our country. The only weird possibility we haven't mentioned in this thread is the black helicopter conspiracy theory. Perhaps they want NK to have nukes and use it so we can go toe-to-toe with China and bolster our economy with a full fledged war the size of WW II. War bonds, women working in factories, etc. I cannot see that as valuable though; so I suspect it's more like Trump is a fucking idiot that cannot rise beyond his ability to build golf courses for rich people.

 

[holdover]

You think Trump is bad because he doesn't want a war in Korea? the only thing we gain is credibility. It wasn't trumps policy to twist the arms of NK. And is was probably the joint chiefs who recommended not to attack because they don't have the proper assets Ready. If your going to war with NK and possibly China, you better bring your A game. We have two carrier groups committed to the Mediterranean 2 in the Indian 2 off the coast of Korea. We have troops and spec of guys committed to several country's. Our tanks are almost 40 years old and have seen heavy use. our helicopters are heavily used and committed to different theatres.the F 35 is plagued with problems

We are in no shape to start a war in Korea. I don't think it's stupid I think it's practical

If the Chinese decided to come in again, we could end up worse off.

If the decision has been made, it's going to take some time to gather the resources needed.

Sure, we could do it if we had to and cross our fingers.

 

[FrankenCub]

You think Trump is bad because he doesn't want a war in Korea? the only thing we gain is credibility. It wasn't trumps policy to twist the arms of NK. And is was probably the joint chiefs who recommended not to attack because they don't have the proper assets Ready. If your going to war with NK and possibly China, you better bring your A game. We have two carrier groups committed to the Mediterranean 2 in the Indian 2 off the coast of Korea. We have troops and spec of guys committed to several country's. Our tanks are almost 40 years old and have seen heavy use. our helicopters are heavily used and committed to different theatres.the F 35 is plagued with problems

We are in no shape to start a war in Korea. I don't think it's stupid I think it's practical

If the Chinese decided to come in again, we could end up worse off.

If the decision has been made, it's going to take some time to gather the resources needed.

Sure, we could do it if we had to and cross our fingers.

You're most likely right, the Pentagon and the Whitehouse know this is not the time to go toe to toe with Lil Douche. We are far too spread out fighting sand fleas right now.
Now if Lil Douche plays his card and launches an ICBM at mainland US, well that changes the game. Drop every type of ordnance on NK starting with their upper level gov buildings and military bases and work our way out until there isn't anything standing. Any troops heading south can be kicked back into play by SK by bombing them till they run north again. We certainly don't need troops on the ground in another theater.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

It's easy to get frustrated with world events, especially when it directly or indirectly affects us. I, like a lot people here, am tired of all the talk and accusations, the posturing and useless sanctions for decades. I don't want war, but I want some sort of resolution to this whole thing. Unfortunately, at this point I don't see another way than military action. I have to assume though, that our military and civilian leaders are more in the know and have more and or different info than what we are being told by the media. Trump has repeatedly said he is about letting the military do its job, so I believe he must be listening to them and taking their advise. One thing is for sure, Trump hasn't flown off the handle and acted impulsively with the military like the left said he would. So the chiefs must be telling him "not yet", and he's listening to them.

 

[holdover]

Sanctions, have done nothing, third partys have done nothing. The decision is simple. War. But it would take time to prepare. I don't want to see another war, but if that's the policy the US going to take then there is no other option. Only it won't happen by morning. It may take a year or more.

 

[FrankenCub]

If war is an absolute must, take the time to prepare the necessary munitions to make it a 24/7 display of lights and thunder raining from the skies for 4 weeks. Or until they no longer have the will to live through another day of it and propose an unlimited terms of surrender.
In the time until then that could mean a Uge number of new jobs for Americans

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Meanwhile, I'll continue my best efforts to prep for an EMP.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Meanwhile, I'll continue my best efforts to prep for an EMP.

On that note... These stories keep popping up with increasing frequency.

https://www.google.com/amp/foxtrota...uclear-power-plants-but-not-to-1796718821/amp

In a worst case scenario of enough of the grid goes down via cyber attack the end result would be similar to an EMP. NK has some well trained hackers in sure they are exploring options....

 

[Blimey]

You think Trump is bad because he doesn't want a war in Korea? the only thing we gain is credibility. It wasn't trumps policy to twist the arms of NK. And is was probably the joint chiefs who recommended not to attack because they don't have the proper assets Ready. If your going to war with NK and possibly China, you better bring your A game. We have two carrier groups committed to the Mediterranean 2 in the Indian 2 off the coast of Korea. We have troops and spec of guys committed to several country's. Our tanks are almost 40 years old and have seen heavy use. our helicopters are heavily used and committed to different theatres.the F 35 is plagued with problems

We are in no shape to start a war in Korea. I don't think it's stupid I think it's practical

If the Chinese decided to come in again, we could end up worse off.

If the decision has been made, it's going to take some time to gather the resources needed.

Sure, we could do it if we had to and cross our fingers.

A slap on the wrist via cruise missiles or some B-1 visits doesn't mean we need tanks rolling around northern korea. I also don't believe the best military in the world (by far and by magnitudes) cannot find the slack to put a stop to NK's nuclear ambitions.

I don't think Trump is bad for not wanting a war. I think Trump is bad for bullshitting as all the previous presidents have done. It doesn't work and makes us look stupid. Bush called NK an axis of evil 16 years ago. Then Obama did nothing as well. Now Trump talks tough but can't back it up.

Sanctions, have done nothing, third partys have done nothing. The decision is simple. War. But it would take time to prepare. I don't want to see another war, but if that's the policy the US going to take then there is no other option. Only it won't happen by morning. It may take a year or more.

We've watched this go on for many years.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Lets face it, I know we are concerned about all the rockets and artillery pointed at Seoul, but China and maybe Russia are the real reasons we haven't floored NK yet. Something is up. Perhaps our military is doing spec ops to find all the artillery locations so that we can neutralize those to minimize casualties in Seoul when we do go in.

 

[Snappo]

You think Trump is bad because he doesn't want a war in Korea? the only thing we gain is credibility. It wasn't trumps policy to twist the arms of NK. And is was probably the joint chiefs who recommended not to attack because they don't have the proper assets Ready. If your going to war with NK and possibly China, you better bring your A game. We have two carrier groups committed to the Mediterranean 2 in the Indian 2 off the coast of Korea. We have troops and spec of guys committed to several country's. Our tanks are almost 40 years old and have seen heavy use. our helicopters are heavily used and committed to different theatres.the F 35 is plagued with problems

We are in no shape to start a war in Korea. I don't think it's stupid I think it's practical

If the Chinese decided to come in again, we could end up worse off.

If the decision has been made, it's going to take some time to gather the resources needed.

Sure, we could do it if we had to and cross our fingers.

* It has been a long time since I was in USAF; but last I checked we had the largest air force in the world (USAF), second largest air force in the world (US Navy), and lots of fixed wing and rotary wing assets in the Marine Corps and Army as well. Is that somehow not the case? China had like a mere fraction of the size of our multiple air forces.

* I don't think we want to go to war with China - we want them to fix NK so we don't have to. And nor should we have to. China and Russia are the big boys in Asia - why can't they take care of the rogue states for that continent? Why does it always have to be USA policing the entire planet?

* China has just one carrier. A used one they bought from the failing USSR 35 years ago now called the Liaoning. We have 14+ aircraft carriers (active and reserve fleets) and 3 more on the way; for a total of 16+. They aren't in the same league that we are. But still - our beef is with NK and not China. We need to force the issue of us being their ally in this matter.

* Of the 14+ aircraft carriers we have floating; I am unsure why we have them in the Med and Indian Oceans other than for the purpose of dealing with issues other countries should be handling instead of us.

* USA has 2,700 M1 Abrams tanks which are all upgraded to A2. I don't know a lot about those. But when I worked for Norden Systems (UTC Division) for 12 years on J-STARS, B52, A6E and EA6B I knew a whole part of the company (in my building location in Norwalk CT) that was doing upgrades to the M109's and MLRS (M270) systems. I believe we have over 1,000 of those M109's operational (or at least we did when I left and went into consulting in the mid 1990s) and have well over 1,500 MLRS which will basically end the lives of any ground forces within like 50 miles. Does NK or even China have armored vehicles that surpass the 5,000 or so we have? I honestly don't know but that's a shit-ton of tanks. IMHO if you could get those things to Europe, you could actually end China without even firing one nuke.

* If you are wondering why I refer to 14+ carriers; here's what I list:
In-process: CVN 79 and CVN80, with CVN 78 coming on line later this year after sea trials finish in Fall of 2017.
Active: CVN 77, CVN 76, CVN 75, CVN 74, CVN 73, CVN 72, CVN 71, CVN 70, CVN 69, and CVN 68.
Reserve: CVN 67, CVN 65, CVN 63.
Preserved and usable with short notice (like we did for Iraq with USS Wisconsin): CVB 41, CV 16, CV 12, CV 11, CV 10.

 

[Snappo]

It's easy to get frustrated with world events, especially when it directly or indirectly affects us. I, like a lot people here, am tired of all the talk and accusations, the posturing and useless sanctions for decades. I don't want war, but I want some sort of resolution to this whole thing. Unfortunately, at this point I don't see another way than military action. I have to assume though, that our military and civilian leaders are more in the know and have more and or different info than what we are being told by the media. Trump has repeatedly said he is about letting the military do its job, so I believe he must be listening to them and taking their advise. One thing is for sure, Trump hasn't flown off the handle and acted impulsively with the military like the left said he would. So the chiefs must be telling him "not yet", and he's listening to them.

You bring up an excellent point; but haven't we learned that Washington is a broken group of politicians and military experts? I will play devil's advocate and say that I have seen our government fuck up pretty much everything they do. They got Iraq wrong (from WMD's to how ISIS would form from the ashes). They got Afghanistan wrong (though Russia could have told us that place is unconquerable). They never saw ISIS coming. They got Libya wrong. Oh man did they get Iran wrong (Thanks Carter and Z-Big, you two pieces of shit). They never saw Al Qaida organizing to the point of 9-11-01. They got Boko Haram wrong. They got Rwanda wrong (man did that get that wrong). They got HAMAS wrong. They got Somalia wrong. They got Sudan wrong. They certainly got USSR wrong at the end of WW II (how did they not know USSR would reject the Marshall Plan and build a wall around a stack of countries?). Honestly - what exactly has the Pentagon gotten right since I was born almost 60 years ago? They fucked up Korea. Fucked up Vietnam. Fucked up Middle East. Fucked up Afghanistan. Once, and only once in my time did we get anything right - Desert Storm. And for that, you can thank J-STARS. We didn't even finish trials and sent our beta test aircraft to Saudi Arabia and basically J-STARS is the reason we lost almost no lives and had such amazing success. No J-STARS and that would have been yet another fiasco.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

You bring up an excellent point; but haven't we learned that Washington is a broken group of politicians and military experts? I will play devil's advocate and say that I have seen our government fuck up pretty much everything they do. They got Iraq wrong (from WMD's to how ISIS would form from the ashes). They got Afghanistan wrong (though Russia could have told us that place is unconquerable). They never saw ISIS coming. They got Libya wrong. Oh man did they get Iran wrong (Thanks Carter and Z-Big, you two pieces of shit). They never saw Al Qaida organizing to the point of 9-11-01. They got Boko Haram wrong. They got Rwanda wrong (man did that get that wrong). They got HAMAS wrong. They got Somalia wrong. They got Sudan wrong. They certainly got USSR wrong at the end of WW II (how did they not know USSR would reject the Marshall Plan and build a wall around a stack of countries?). Honestly - what exactly has the Pentagon gotten right since I was born almost 60 years ago? They fucked up Korea. Fucked up Vietnam. Fucked up Middle East. Fucked up Afghanistan. Once, and only once in my time did we get anything right - Desert Storm. And for that, you can thank J-STARS. We didn't even finish trials and sent our beta test aircraft to Saudi Arabia and basically J-STARS is the reason we lost almost no lives and had such amazing success. No J-STARS and that would have been yet another fiasco.

You assume their intentions are pure (meaning they intend what they tell you). I don't think they are so pure. So many things are said just to get people on board with "an agenda" and once they are on board what's done is done and they deal with the fall out after. They are the epitome of arrogance. Never forget that. Arrogance. They think they can get away with anything and to a large extent, they have.

 

[masterswimmer]

You assume their intentions are pure (meaning they intend what they tell you). I don't think they are so pure. So many things are said just to get people on board with "an agenda" and once they are on board what's done is done and they deal with the fall out after. They are the epitome of arrogance. Never forget that. Arrogance. They think they can get away with anything and to a large extent, they have.

Politicians are like husbands, they don't ask for permission (during their campaign), they ask for forgiveness once elected (and quite honestly, they don't do that either).

 

[spat]

Sanctions, have done nothing, third partys have done nothing. The decision is simple. War. But it would take time to prepare. I don't want to see another war, but if that's the policy the US going to take then there is no other option. Only it won't happen by morning. It may take a year or more.

If our only goal is to prevent his having a missile based nuclear delivery system, that we can do with air power alone.

Can't win a war, but we can destroy every ICBM and the facilities to make more. It would then be up to Kim if he wants to cross the DMV, or try to FedEx a nuke to the US.

 

[Arjuna]

The US had a clear shot at killing Kim Jong Un on July 4 — here's why it didn't strike

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

The US had a clear shot at killing Kim Jong Un on July 4 — here's why it didn't strike

That's an interesting theory.... Hmm...

I still don't think it will affect fat boy. He's hat shit crazy and does not think rationally or logically along the same axis that we do.

 

[4excal]

If war is an absolute must, take the time to prepare the necessary munitions to make it a 24/7 display of lights and thunder raining from the skies for 4 weeks. Or until they no longer have the will to live through another day of it and propose an unlimited terms of surrender.
In the time until then that could mean a Uge number of new jobs for Americans

4 weeks??! Shhhit this Country ain't no Iraq..it's a small dot of a thing on the map. I'd bet some of our arsenal can blanket the whole dame "country" in one drop. This would be over in hours. The only problem is the need for precision bombing though, because South Korea can't be hit accidentally..

 

[masterswimmer]

The US had a clear shot at killing Kim Jong Un on July 4 — here's why it didn't strike

The only reason Jong Un has for living is for his subjects to worship him, support him, and protect him. He could care less about prosperity for his subjects. He actually does everything in his power to keep his subjects in poverty.

He does not think rationally. The two reasons in the article for not taking out Jong Un, although thoughtful and rational, will not in any way influence or deter fat boys resolve.

Wishful thinking.