Monroe county has a problem with multi caliber pistols

[That_FNG]

Asking for a friend of mine who lives in Monroe county. He moved to Monroe from Erie and Niagara county with an AR15 and AR10 pistol on his permit that were registered. In July he went to Monroe permit office and added a bunch of calibers to them as he is in the process of getting a bunch of different uppers for them. Now because he added a bunch of calibers to prexisting and registered pistols he now is being told they are not pistols. Thoughts on what to do?

 

[fnfalguy]

That could be a tough one to show 32 different calibers for the ar15 style unless he has a bunch of uppers. I’d have a hard time myself naming that many caliber uppers that could fit on a lower. If it was something like a contender frame, you could easily have that many calibers and may be an easier case to prove.

IANAL nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn.


ETA: I stand corrected by Wikipedia. I still imagine he would have to show them some semblance of proof of each of the uppers if they are getting that petty.

 

[turbobike]

It's a county-by-county thing...BUT, if that nasty letter was addressed to me, (I would hate to pony up the money) I would get a 2A knowledgeable Attorney involved before this escalated into something worse..ie possibly of jeopardizing his permit...

 

[That_FNG]

I’ve advised him for the time being to see if both pistols can be temporarily stored at his FFL and to reach out to FPC, GOA and NYSRPA. Nowhere In nys law does it reference any sort of caliber limit for pistols. For many years nys has allowed both contender pistols as well as AR type pistols. My girlfriends dad has a contender on his permit with 35 calibers registered.

any recommendations for a good firearms lawyer in Monroe county or in NYS?

 

[That_FNG]

I should also add that he does not yet have an upper with every caliber in his possession. Since NYS requires you to first add the caliber to your permit before being to acquire the different caliber barrel/upper.

For me personally I just added 357 sig and 9mm to my G35 as well as 45 caliber to my ar pistol on my permit. Now that they are added I can go purchase the barrels/upper online and ship them to me

 

[Edwardteach72]

It'd be crazy if something like a Thompson contender existed

 

[Edwardteach72]

100% contact FPC and show them the letter

 

[Jem45472]

Wow, that does not look, this will cause him some headaches. Mines listed as 5.56/22lr.

How's that sheriff? I would take the brace off if it has one along with any adjustable tube, explain to sheriff you only have the two calibers and hopefully he'll ok it while advising not to bother with the others.

Somehow I don't think this will go that easily and would advise, as others have said, to talk to a lawyer.

 

[spat]

I should also add that he does not yet have an upper with every caliber in his possession. Since NYS requires you to first add the caliber to your permit before being to acquire the different caliber barrel/upper.

For me personally I just added 357 sig and 9mm to my G35 as well as 45 caliber to my ar pistol on my permit. Now that they are added I can go purchase the barrels/upper online and ship them to me

NY does not require you to add the caliber to your permit before acquiring the upper.

Maybe before assembling the gun, but certainly not before acquiring the upper.

 

[Tisto]

1st, find a lawyer NOW !
2nd, get every gun to a safe place ASAP.

It sounds to me like the county intends to confiscate anything they can. If they determine that the AR frames are NOT pistols, they will confiscate them, then revoke his permit, then they will confiscate EVERY other gun he has. ( thankyou, NYSAFE ) The county official will make every attempt to classify them as anything other than pistols, so watch out for any attempts to do so.

He has to be very careful that he is not in violation of any NYS laws as well as Fed laws. The pistol brace controversy comes to mind.

Just out of curiosity, why did he transfer his permit from Niagara Co. to Monroe ? Some counties don't mind if you no longer reside in the county and will continue to host your permit. I don't know if Niagara does so, but I would not have transferred my permit without checking on that and on how the new county views their issuing authority.

Seriously, find a lawyer before ANY contact is made with the county. Contacting FPC and GOA and SAF is a fine idea and may pay dividends, but his immediate concern is protecting his assets as well as his current permit.

 

[kev74]

I'm curious to hear how this works out for your buddy.

He might have over stretched here though.

I think the above advise to get a lawyer involved is wise.

 

[turbobike]

Another idea, if no money for Lawyer,... I would have him "sell" all his registered AR related stuff to a buddy out of state preferably or transfer them to somebody NY in a 2A friendly county.
Take all the paperwork of the "sold/transfered" pistols to the Sheriff and tell him they are no longer in his procession ..averting a potential WOKE government official..Monroe County is a Liberial Bastion....

 

[Edwardteach72]

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[Jem45472]

Another idea, if no money for Lawyer,... I would have him "sell" all his registered AR related stuff to a buddy out of state preferably or transfer them to somebody NY in a 2A friendly county.
Take all the paperwork of the "sold/transfered" pistols to the Sheriff and tell him they are no longer in his procession ..averting a potential WOKE government official..Monroe County is a Liberial Bastion....

I was going to post what @Tisto did, as that's pretty much what it sounds like to me also, but if the sheriff signs off on them he should be good.

I'm not the kind to take that chance though.

Your advice to sell them RIGHT NOW out of state is the easiest way out of this mess if you ask me.

 

[Darth]

Ehh, this is another example of why I don't understand going out of your way to let them know what you have.

We've long been told the "firearm" (registered part) is the frame or the lower. That's the part I have registered. Whether or not I have other unserialized parts, be that another barrel or upper, is really nobody's business.

 

[That_FNG]

Just to clarify a few things,

when he moved from Niagara county to monroe county he was told by Niagara county that he had to change it to a Monroe permit.

for the last 1.5 years both AR15 and AR10 pistol were registered with monroe with no problem. They did not give him any trouble when he changed his permit over from Niagara to monroe with both of these pistols. Monroe county did not need to add them to their system as they already had AR15 and AR10 pistols in their system.

the problem recently arose after he went added new calibers to existing pistols (that is what triggered everything) when he went to add multiple calibers so that every caliber would be listed in accordance with NY law monroe permit office gave him some trouble on that as they apparently did not know a pistol can be multiple calibers

both AR pistols are fixed mag AR pistols without any braces (bare buffer tubes only) basically the same as almost every other AR pistol in NYS.

all of his guns have been transferred to an FFL for safe keeping until this mess is sorted out.

FPC, GOA and NYSRPA have all been contacted. Still looking for a good 2A lawyer to talk too as nothing has been recommended yet and would rather not just go by whatever google returns in a search query.


multiple questions have arisen out of this, how can NYS say they are not pistols if they meet the federal definition of a pistol (it appears as though NYS does not define what a pistol is, only a rifle, shotgun and other) if these pistols do not meet the nys definition of rifle, shotgun or other how can nys say they are not pistols? If these are not pistols then why did nys give permission for it to be on a pistol permit? Without NYS’s permission he could nit

 

[Tisto]

Ehh, this is another example of why I don't understand going out of your way to let them know what you have.

We've long been told the "firearm" (registered part) is the frame or the lower. That's the part I have registered. Whether or not I have other unserialized parts, be that another barrel or upper, is really nobody's business.

Darth is correct. Technically, the frame of a Contender is what is registered, not the barrel. I got into a long discussion with my pistol permit clerk about this many years ago. I told her I was going to buy a contender, and asked how it would be listed on my permit, and what would happen if I bought additional barrels. What she told me at the time was, the county would LIKE you to inform them of the additional barrels, but there was no actual compulsion to do so. Since the barrels are sold without a background check, and didn't even have serial numbers on them ( that may have changed ), I had no DUTY to inform the office. Keep in mind, that info was from a county that was rural, and had no aversion to permit holders carrying legally. Your milage may vary in a different county, and 30 years later.

 

[Acer-m14]

didn't bruen case .. shall issue .. no good cause needed ... watchin this thread now ..

 

[That_FNG]

Darth is correct. Technically, the frame of a Contender is what is registered, not the barrel. I got into a long discussion with my pistol permit clerk about this many years ago. I told her I was going to buy a contender, and asked how it would be listed on my permit, and what would happen if I bought additional barrels. What she told me at the time was, the county would LIKE you to inform them of the additional barrels, but there was no actual compulsion to do so. Since the barrels are sold without a background check, and didn't even have serial numbers on them ( that may have changed ), I had no DUTY to inform the office. Keep in mind, that info was from a county that was rural, and had no aversion to permit holders carrying legally. Your milage may vary in a different county, and 30 years later.

From what I understand is that in the past nys would allow it the caliber to be listed as “multi” which is no longer the case. Now every caliber has to be listed on your permit. My girlfriends dad just picked up a contender pistol and was required to have all 10 calibers that came with it listed on his permit. He was told if he wished to have additional calibers for it that he would first need to add them to his permit before taking delivery of said barrels.

 

[Jem45472]

This is a prime example of what happens when laws are written the way they are. Permit offices, Leo's, ffl's, attorney's, da's, judges. Very few of them know the wording of the laws even half as much as us. And I for one can't keep up with them anymore, so I quit trying now.

If, IF- the sheriff knows the laws and signs off on them you should be good. What concerns me is how the mag is locked. If he was planning multiple calibers, the lock is probably removable. Mine are removable, but I've never had to bring them anywhere for a leo inspection. I would advise that if they are going to have sheriff inspect them to have some epoxy in place.

Before getting flamed, I know the law, and mag release doesn't need to be permanent, but it's not worth screwing around in this case for something that is easily removed after this has been settled.

 

[That_FNG]

This is a prime example of what happens when laws are written the way they are. Permit offices, Leo's, ffl's, attorney's, da's, judges. Very few of them know the wording of the laws even half as much as us. And I for one can't keep up with them anymore, so I quit trying now.

If, IF- the sheriff knows the laws and signs off on them you should be good. What concerns me is how the mag is locked. If he was planning multiple calibers, the lock is probably removable. Mine are removable, but I've never had to bring them anywhere for a leo inspection. I would advise that if they are going to have sheriff inspect them to have some epoxy in place.

Before getting flamed, I know the law, and mag release doesn't need to be permanent, but it's not worth screwing around in this case for something that is easily removed after this has been settled.

The mags have been mag locked and epoxy. Whatever calibers can use a 10 round 5.56 mag (swapping followers as needed) would be semi auto, others would be treated like single shots essentially

 

[Acer-m14]

458 socom AR pistol .. 30 rnd 556 mag = 10 rounds .. swap the mag follower for better feeding .. change the 556 upper to the 458 .. pew ..

 

[Jem45472]

The mags have been mag locked and epoxy. Whatever calibers can use a 10 round 5.56 mag (swapping followers as needed) would be semi auto, others would be treated like single shots essentially

If that's the case, the sheriff really should sign off on them with no issue. But you know how things are in this state, things can change drastically by county.

 

[That_FNG]

458 socom AR pistol .. 30 rnd 556 mag = 10 rounds .. swap the mag follower for better feeding .. change the 556 upper to the 458 .. pew ..

That how my AR pistol is. Have a fixed 10 round 5.56 mag. Can run 10 rounds 5.56 or 300 black out. Can run a couple of rounds of 6.5 Grendel or 6mm or 450 bushmaster depending on the follower, or use it as a single shot 22LR for target shooting.

 

[Acer-m14]

That how my AR pistol is. Have a fixed 10 round 5.56 mag. Can run 10 rounds 5.56 or 300 black out. Can run a couple of rounds of 6.5 Grendel or 6mm or 450 bushmaster depending on the follower, or use it as a single shot 22LR for target shooting.

can you imaging the shit show if you had a fixed 30 rnd mag on the AR and different followers and pencils cut to size to limit mag capacity ..

you know like water fowl hunting with a 5 or 6 round mag and have to limit it to 3 .. LOL

 

[Tisto]

That wouldn't fly. "Readily restorable" . They would have you in handcuffs.

 

[Acer-m14]

@That_FNG question has your friend took that paper back to Niagara county and showed them ?

nothing like a county vs county fight LOL .

 

[Acer-m14]

That wouldn't fly. "Readily restorable" . They would have you in handcuffs.

so is my moss 500 for deer and ducks and i didnt have to swap mag tube LOL ..

 

[Tisto]

DEC regulations for hunting ducks don't say anything about the gun being able to be converted back to holding more than 3 shells, only that it cannot hold more than 3 WHILE HUNTING.

A 30 round mag with a limiter inside it such as a pencil is still a 30 round mag, and not legal per NYSAFE. The fact that a 30 round mag becomes a 10 round mag for a .450 Bushmaster could be a serious legal problem. With the wrong LEO and DA, it could be an issue, especially if the owner also posessed an upper that used .223, .300 BLK, .204 Ruger, or any other similar sized cartridge.

 

[Acer-m14]

DEC regulations for hunting ducks don't say anything about the gun being able to be converted back to holding more than 3 shells, only that it cannot hold more than 3 WHILE HUNTING.

A 30 round mag with a limiter inside it such as a pencil is still a 30 round mag, and not legal per NYSAFE. The fact that a 30 round mag becomes a 10 round mag for a .450 Bushmaster could be a serious legal problem. With the wrong LEO and DA, it could be an issue, especially if the owner also posessed an upper that used .223, .300 BLK, .204 Ruger, or any other similar sized cartridge.

i thought the mag cant be readily removed/restored .. its fixed .. catching my drift ...

where in the law says a 10 rnd mag has to be fixed only limited to 10 for 556 /223 ect