New Bolt(ish) build - .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor?

[fnfalguy]

I'm thinking of doing a Kalikey build for either a .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor and not sure which way to go. Target shooting toy, maybe to 500 m or a touch longer if I can find the range. Not yet set up with reloading supplies for 6.5, but that can be remedied over time. Probably going the route of an Aeroprecison upper. I have the Kalikey, so dammit its going to get used on something.

Thoughts?

 

[dsdmmat]

The 6.5 is a better target round for 500 and beyond.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

The 6.5 is a better target round for 500 and beyond.

True. Barrel life may be shorter though.

 

[kev74]

One of each

I'd probably go 308 for ease of sourcing consumables.

 

[fnfalguy]

The 6.5 is a better target round for 500 and beyond.

True. Barrel life may be shorter though.

Thoughts on optimal barrel length? looks like they are 18, 20, or 24 (I think). If I go the .308 route, I'm probably doing the 20"

 

[dsdmmat]

Thoughts on optimal barrel length? looks like they are 18, 20, or 24 (I think). If I go the .308 route, I'm probably doing the 20"

On true bolt target guns, I tend to run 26-30” barrels and use slower powders to take advantage of the barrel length. My 30-06 is sporting a 30” 1000 yard bench rest profile hart barrel and spits out a 168 grain bullet at 2950 FPS. On my large frame AR target guns I tend to run 24-26” barrels. The 6.5 CM needs velocity so the longer the barrel the better for distance shooting.

I have read things that say 308 win barrel should last about 6000-8000 rounds, a 6.5 CM probably 3500-4500 rounds before groups start opening up I have not shot out a mid sized barrel yet. I have burned up a few small bore barrels though.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Thoughts on optimal barrel length? looks like they are 18, 20, or 24 (I think). If I go the .308 route, I'm probably doing the 20"

I run 24" barrels on all my Creeds.

 

[Mk44]

OP: " Target shooting toy, maybe to 500 m or a touch longer if I can find the range."

I love .308. it's my favorite hunting cartridge.
But if I was looking to build a custom target rifle/ precision rifle, I would go with 6.5 creed and a 24+" bbl for 500m and on. It's also easier on the shoulder= more shooting.
(My target/range rifle set-up tends to be a bit heavy and too long for hunting. I have other rifles for hunting.)

 

[meketrefe]

A lot of people will suggest 6 and 6.5 but wo articulating 100% why in practical terms.
For 500 yards any of the 308 variants will work.
The 308 is a much better all around cartrige for almost every single use other than tactical matches at paper and easy to score targets at 1000 yards. But in long range, military and, hard to score targets or hunting certain animals the 6.5 and 6mm fall short and the 308 is a much better long range round for that.
The only advantage of the 6.5 bullets is very limited to practical matches with paper or easy to score steel targets and the fact that for high volume the ammo is a tad more affordable for practice. But with specialized long range loads the 308 comes ahead in terms of effectiveness and power with pretty much the same trajectories. For that you need solid bullets that is where the 30 and 284 bores shine.
If I had to decide between the 308 and something else easy, the 7mm-08 enjoys the best of both worlds and does everything better than the 6.5 and 308 other than the 308 loaded with stout 180-200gr loads for heavy game.
But the 7mm-08 one needs to reload for long range since there are not many commercial loads for that but, again not needed for 500-800 yards.
My 260 match barrels would last 1-1.5K max before throat was done.
The 308 barrel will last 4 times the life of the 6.5 accuracy life that is.

If you need more information about the internal or external ballistics let me know.
308 is not the current metro-trendy fashion but it is a no brainer.

 

[Vapor]

They both are fine. You won't shoot out either in your lifetime.


The 6.5 bucks the wind a bit better and is kinder on your shoulder.


The .308 will be just as accurate within 500, and within normal hunting ranges is a better choice.

 

[fnfalguy]

For anyone interested, Aero Precision is running a 4th of July sale, picked up one of their 20” .308 for right at $600. Also, Brownells is running a special on the M5 lowers. Rather fortuitous.

 

[northny]

A lot of people will suggest 6 and 6.5 but wo articulating 100% why in practical terms.
For 500 yards any of the 308 variants will work.
The 308 is a much better all around cartrige for almost every single use other than tactical matches at paper and easy to score targets at 1000 yards. But in long range, military and, hard to score targets or hunting certain animals the 6.5 and 6mm fall short and the 308 is a much better long range round for that.
The only advantage of the 6.5 bullets is very limited to practical matches with paper or easy to score steel targets and the fact that for high volume the ammo is a tad more affordable for practice. But with specialized long range loads the 308 comes ahead in terms of effectiveness and power with pretty much the same trajectories. For that you need solid bullets that is where the 30 and 284 bores shine.
If I had to decide between the 308 and something else easy, the 7mm-08 enjoys the best of both worlds and does everything better than the 6.5 and 308 other than the 308 loaded with stout 180-200gr loads for heavy game.
But the 7mm-08 one needs to reload for long range since there are not many commercial loads for that but, again not needed for 500-800 yards.
My 260 match barrels would last 1-1.5K max before throat was done.
The 308 barrel will last 4 times the life of the 6.5 accuracy life that is.

If you need more information about the internal or external ballistics let me know.
308 is not the current metro-trendy fashion but it is a no brainer.

The above is the closest I’ve ever seen to an opinion on this topic (6.5 CM vs .308 ) that mirrors mine. I started my long range shooting ( PRS or paper) with a .308. After a year switched to 6.5CM. The main difference was at 800 yards and out I had an increase in first round hit % with 6.5. Simply put for me it is way easier to get hits with 6.5 at 900 and 1000 yards, but at the same time at 700 yards and under (OPs goal) I found no difference with .308. This is with either my hand loads in .308 or hand loads or factory in 6.5CM.

As an observation the 6.5 vs .308 debate is just the short action version of the .270 Winchester vs 30/06 of a generation or two ago. Just as there was a wide variety in quality of ‘06 ammo and rifles/ barrels in circulation the .270 seemed more consistent. I believe the same is true today with a wide range of .308 quality on market vs the 6.5cm being made for a more demanding audience. So my general recommendation is if you don’t hand load go with 6.5 cm. My best hand loads only match quality of Hornady ELD Match in 6.5

 

[meketrefe]

The above is the closest I’ve ever seen to an opinion on this topic (6.5 CM vs .308 ) that mirrors mine. I started my long range shooting ( PRS or paper) with a .308. After a year switched to 6.5CM. The main difference was at 800 yards and out I had an increase in first round hit % with 6.5. Simply put for me it is way easier to get hits with 6.5 at 900 and 1000 yards, but at the same time at 700 yards and under (OPs goal) I found no difference with .308. This is with either my hand loads in .308 or hand loads or factory in 6.5CM.

As an observation the 6.5 vs .308 debate is just the short action version of the .270 Winchester vs 30/06 of a generation or two ago. Just as there was a wide variety in quality of ‘06 ammo and rifles/ barrels in circulation the .270 seemed more consistent. I believe the same is true today with a wide range of .308 quality on market vs the 6.5cm being made for a more demanding audience. So my general recommendation is if you don’t hand load go with 6.5 cm. My best hand loads only match quality of Hornady ELD Match in 6.5

The 308 will shoot as far and as flat as the 6.5 and will shoot heavier bullets, you just have to shoot cnc bullets so for large volume is more costly.
For hunting or even military targets one use the best latest generation bullets and the 308 smokes the 6.5 and 6mm i terms of power with same range and trajectories.
308 with modern powsers and top shelve bullets doesnt have a proble.wi5h 1300 yards targets.
6mm and 6.5 are too light for anything too serious as they max.out pretty quickly.
For high volume and to punch paper 6.5 and 6mm are less costly and easier to drive.
That is the only advantage nothing else.
The 7mm is the one that challenges the all with the sweet spot between reach, traj3ctory and still pretty decent momentum (grains) on the target.

 

[Upstate43]

I can't speak to the differences in military and hunting applications for 6.5 vs .308, though I have seen articles and books which mention that the 6.5mm and 6mm cartridges do have limitations against larger game (Nathan Foster's "A Practical Guide to Long Range Hunting Cartridges" is the source that comes to mind).

With regards to target shooting (recreational or competitive), I think the 6.5's main advantage is that it has much less recoil as compared to .308 - the difference is night and day, all other factors being equal. This benefits shooter consistency with regards to follow-up shots. A secondary advantage is that 6.5 is somewhat flatter shooting and better at "bucking" the wind. The main drawbacks compared to .308: less barrel life and and less lethality (with regards to large game).

Personally, I tend to push newer shooters towards .308 for a number of reasons:
1) There are a whole lot of mildly used .308 rifles which can be picked up for cheap.
2) .308 is still plenty capable at 1000 yards and within - a good DOPE card and some practice calling the wind will get you pretty far before you find the true limits of .308.
3) More barrel life = more time/less money before a new barrel is needed.
4) A shooter really needs learn the intricacies of wind-calling and trajectories with .308 - good foundation for the long run.

There is nothing wrong with picking up a .308 rifle and then re-barreling to 6.5mm or 6mm if and when the OP seeks somewhat better range performance, though in my eyes, it's hard to consider either cartridge inherently better than .308. Each cartridge has its own set of compromises.

 

[meketrefe]

I can't speak to the differences in military and hunting applications for 6.5 vs .308, though I have seen articles and books which mention that the 6.5mm and 6mm cartridges do have limitations against larger game (Nathan Foster's "A Practical Guide to Long Range Hunting Cartridges" is the source that comes to mind).

With regards to target shooting (recreational or competitive), I think the 6.5's main advantage is that it has much less recoil as compared to .308 - the difference is night and day, all other factors being equal. This benefits shooter consistency with regards to follow-up shots. A secondary advantage is that 6.5 is somewhat flatter shooting and better at "bucking" the wind. The main drawbacks compared to .308: less barrel life and and less lethality (with regards to large game).

Personally, I tend to push newer shooters towards .308 for a number of reasons:
1) There are a whole lot of mildly used .308 rifles which can be picked up for cheap.
2) .308 is still plenty capable at 1000 yards and within - a good DOPE card and some practice calling the wind will get you pretty far before you find the true limits of .308.
3) More barrel life = more time/less money before a new barrel is needed.
4) A shooter really needs learn the intricacies of wind-calling and trajectories with .308 - good foundation for the long run.

There is nothing wrong with picking up a .308 rifle and then re-barreling to 6.5mm or 6mm if and when the OP seeks somewhat better range performance, though in my eyes, it's hard to consider either cartridge inherently better than .308. Each cartridge has its own set of compromises.

Yes the 6mm and 6.5mm as well as the 90gr 22 calober bulllets are easier to shoot and popular to punch paper.
As one moves up the bore ladder the differences in perceived recoil for any given application are less of an issue.
Specially driving long range type of rifles that is one of the most used claimed advantages.
But neither the recoil or trajectory variances are substancial as many claim.
The modern 308, with the latest modern bullets and powders shoots as flat and as far as the best 6.5 round. 1 mile transonic range that is.
For the flattest, most economical type of shooting the 6mm is hard to beat but then it is relegated to what the best 6mm bullets can do for other purposes, realistically and ethically in the case of hunting.
As we move in the new age of polymer cases and leadless projectiles the case for the 308 grows stronger as small bores are quickly maxed out by the reduced density of the payload.
So, what it seems an attribute of obsolence of the slightly underbored cartridges like the 308 is now an advantage in the monolithic bullet world.
I have to be in my desk to provide a drawing on how this works so stay tuned.
In the perfect world the 308 would have been a 7mm-08 from the start.
The 7mm is the sweet spot for the short action and we Don't need a magnum. A slightly shorter version of the 284 is the perfect volume to bore ratio.
The 284 is the 3/4 of the front of the remmag and almost same performance with much less powder and less wasted burn.
I call it the perfect fractional magnum.
Still the 308 is the best choice for most and reload for long range.
That or the 7mm08 and reload for LR too.