NY compliant AK47 options

[NYGuns]

Let's use this thread to talk about different options for NY compliant AK47's.

What are some options?

Edit: 2/3/17 - We have a group buy set up with Lee Armory! http://nygunforum.com/threads/nygf-lee-armory-ak-47-group-buy-discounted-rate.5916

 

[Uzi]

As far as I know, it's either making it bolt action by shortening the piston or something similar, or putting no grip, or a really stupid grip and or stock on it.

 

[Bananabandit]

I dont wanna be "that guy", but SKS.

 

[carpediem]

Saiga or VEPR.

 

[spat]

bullet button also works

 

[Marine Cpl]

Saiga or VEPR.

^^^What he said.

Saiga Sporter


Vepr Hunter


All other combinations with grip spurs and standard bullet buttons which may or may not be legal (not in my opinion because once removed the rifle has the ability to accept a detachable magazine) are counterproductive.

 

[spat]

may not be legal (not in my opinion because once removed the rifle has the ability to accept a detachable magazine) is counterproductive.

How exactly does that work ?
Once the fixed mag is removed, anything can be made to take a detachable one.

Both the guns you have listed have a pistol grip too, after you remove the fixed stock and install one.

 

[Marine Cpl]

How exactly does that work ?
Once the fixed mag is removed, anything can be made to take a detachable one.

Both the guns you have listed have a pistol grip too, after you remove the fixed stock and install one.

I don't want to derail the thread with legalities but the law says ability to ACCEPT a detachable magazine and not HAS a detachable magazine like it does when it says HAS a pistol grip. There's a big difference in the wording.

If you stick a bullet in there and remove the magazine in a bullet button equipped AK or use a standard magazine release and remove the magazine with your finger like normal in a regular AK, both functional rifles completely assembled in either form with a standard magazine release or a bullet button will both have the ABILITY to ACCEPT another detachable magazine. This is why although not in the law, people weld or epoxy bullet buttons shut in AR'S for permanence so that the detachable magazine cannot ever be removed and thus the magazine becomes part of the rifle's receiver and cannot have the ABILITY to ACCEPT another magazine while the magazine is permanently in there.

As far as the adding a pistol grip argument being the same as adding a detachable magazine goes, It does not say ABILITY to ACCEPT a pistol grip so I don't know where that argument comes from in regards to comparing it with ACCEPTING detachable magazines. The rifle either HAS a pistol grip or it DOES NOT in regards to it being legal. Nowhere does it say have the ABILITY to ACCEPT a pistol grip like it does when it says have the ABILITY to ACCEPT a detachable magazine.

Regardless whether that argument is agreed upon or not, it would not be wise to get a regular AK and put a bullet button on it it and reduce the rifle's ability or get a Spur Grip that you cannot handle one handed when the Sporter and Vepr versions are legal and 100 percent functional right out of the box.

 

[HEX]

bullet button also works

I can't agree with that one.

I keep trying to type something in this thread and then going back and deleting it again. I've decided it's easier for me to just say I agree all around with Willjr75 in the post above this one.

Too bad Saigas have gone from $325 rifles to the ridiculous prices they're selling for these days. Then again the tried and true $200 Yugo SKS is now a $400+ gun also.

I love the AKM style rifle platform (and hate calling them ak47s..heh). Almost all of my rifle training was done on that platform in days now long past. I truly believe though there are no really optimal and viable choices for the use of the platform in NY state under these current laws though.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Although ugly in my opinion, here is another alternative. It looks like it would be comfortable.

 

[HEX]

It's completely silly though. To load a fixed mag AK like that I assume you'd have to basically field strip the whole thing just to load it. Top loader works for an AR because you can just pull open the upper, but for an AK it's a very different thing. You'd have to pull the dust cover and then the whole piston/bolt/recoil assembly out to even get at the mag from the top. I can't understand why anyone would think it was worth it.
Even a completely overpriced Saiga would make all the sense in the world over something that ridiculous just to load.

 

[spat]

I don't want to derail the thread with legalities but the law says ability to ACCEPT a detachable magazine and not HAS a detachable magazine like it does when it says HAS a pistol grip. There's a big difference in the wording.

If you stick a bullet in there and remove the magazine in a bullet button equipped AK or use a standard magazine release and remove the magazine with your finger like normal in a regular AK, both functional rifles completely assembled in either form with a standard magazine release or a bullet button will both have the ABILITY to ACCEPT another detachable magazine. This is why although not in the law, people weld or epoxy bullet buttons shut in AR'S for permanence so that the detachable magazine cannot ever be removed and thus the magazine becomes part of the rifle's receiver and cannot have the ABILITY to ACCEPT another magazine while the magazine is permanently in there.

As far as the adding a pistol grip argument being the same as adding a detachable magazine goes, It does not say ABILITY to ACCEPT a pistol grip so I don't know where that argument comes from in regards to comparing it with ACCEPTING detachable magazines. The rifle either HAS a pistol grip or it DOES NOT in regards to it being legal. Nowhere does it say have the ABILITY to ACCEPT a pistol grip like it does when it says have the ABILITY to ACCEPT a detachable magazine.

Regardless whether that argument is agreed upon or not, it would not be wise to get a regular AK and put a bullet button on it it and reduce the rifle's ability or get a Spur Grip that you cannot handle one handed when the Sporter and Vepr versions are legal and 100 percent functional right out of the box.

By your logic I don't even need the bullet button. I just need to keep a magazine inserted at all times. Can't accept a second mag, so I'm good.

The BB makes the magazine non detachable. Therefore not a detachable magazine. The logic works and has been upheld in CA, why would it be different in NY ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

By your logic I don't even need the bullet button. I just need to keep a magazine inserted at all times. Can't accept a second mag, so I'm good.

The BB makes the magazine non detachable. Therefore not a detachable magazine. The logic works and has been upheld in CA, why would it be different in NY ?

You can keep the magazine in there all you want with a standard magazine catch or bullet button but once you or the police remove it, the rifle is now capable of accepting another detachable magazine.

CA was able use the bullet button and we weren't because they had a definition on what a fixed magazine was. It was defined as a magazine that can only be removed via a tool. So if no tools were required for removal, the magazine was not fixed and therefore detachable. They have since changed their definition of fixed magazine to only being able to be removed by disassembly of the action so the bullet button is no longer legal there. This is why they are now using the ArMagLock instead of the bullet button.

NY has no such definitions and because it has no such definitions on what is a fixed magazine, if the "detachable magazine" by design can be removed, the rifle can ACCEPT another detachable magazine.

 

[Magnus]

Although ugly in my opinion, here is another alternative. It looks like it would be comfortable.

View attachment 2659

That's the ugliest thing I've ever seen.

 

[FRANKIE]

First off, complements to "NYGuns" for an excellent thread topic.
This platform rifle will suffer the most (as far as functionality) by the laws of this State.
This is basically about legal ownership. And if you like to shoot it, "Tedious and walking the line of unsafe function."
How about a straight pull build using a barrel with an undrilled gas port.
When called for, gas port can be drilled and returned to it's semi auto loading function with no disassembly or damage to the rifle.
This does preserve your investment as far as reversal when relocating to a free state.

Drill bit size;
Size: 0.1285 In.
Wire #30
Flute Length: 1-5/8"
Overall Length: 6"



This method refers to the typical AKM in 7.62x39mm. with a 45 degree gas block. The AK74 in 5.45x39 is another story.
This is a 90 degree gas block with a smaller .077" port. Being 90 degrees with no access to drill while on the rifle, the gas block would have to be pressed back
in order to drill gas port.

 

[Marine Cpl]

First off, complements to "NYGuns" for an excellent thread topic.
This platform rifle will suffer the most (as far as functionality) by the laws of this State.
This is basically about legal ownership. And if you like to shoot it, "Tedious and walking the line of unsafe function."
How about a straight pull build using a barrel with an undrilled gas port.
When called for, gas port can be drilled and returned to it's semi auto loading function with no disassembly or damage to the rifle.
This does preserve your investment as far as reversal when relocating to a free state.

Drill bit size;
Size: 0.1285 In.
Wire #30
Flute Length: 1-5/8"
Overall Length: 6"

View attachment 2668

This method refers to the typical AKM in 7.62x39mm. with a 45 degree gas block. The AK74 in 5.45x39 is another story.
This is a 90 degree gas block with a smaller .077" port. Being 90 degrees with no access to drill while on the rifle, the gas block would have to be pressed back
in order to drill gas port.

I don't know how to say this without offending but wouldn't it be easier to just get a functional Saiga Sporter that shoots normal and convert later if need be?

Is a pistol grip really worth having a straight pull?

 

[FRANKIE]

No offence at all. Just sticking to the thread topic of NY compliant AK-47 options. All about the AK (AKM) and what it means to different folks to own this type rifle.
I personally wouldn't mention a Saiga in the same breath as these. Like I said in my post where I clearly explained the trade off of functionality for ownership with all legalities considered,
If you chose to own one of these rifles, there are options without burning bridges hence, "returning to full function".
Sort of a counter action to the old "You can't have that"

 

[meketrefe]

Hi,
I had previously created a thread to talk about the same topic here...

Kalash build NY compliant for special purpose rifle

This is what I would do:
A) See if you want to merge both threads. up to you.
B) I would change the title of this one to replace AK47 with AK based, kalash based or something like that. AK47 is not appropriate but I am
more worried about sending the wrong message to the masses that have no clue.
C) By now the options that are compliant are pretty clear. We don't need to argue about those. IMO the straight pull defeats the whole purpose but I would add the lever release.
D) IMO I think one should concentrate in improvements using compliant options that actually enhance the firearm instead of castrating it.

This is one example for compliance using an Encore TC hunting Stock. In my thread I want to build based on a slant receiver to make a simple adapter
to make it a lot easier to attach. the rear tongue is not that critical.

 

[ECU Pirates]

A Saiga in it's stock form is a fine rifle. It's about as good as it gets in this state (IMO). I like them so much I bought three! I miss they days when they only cost about $350.

 

[meketrefe]

My first saiga was $175 with tax included. Later I got a bunch in different calibers.
Now they are way overpriced.

 

[Prudii]

Ive got a Saiga, it works. When i get around to installing a bullet ramp it will take ak mags. I need to find a gunsmith willing to do the drilling required to remove the trigger so I can replace the full paddle safety. Its not the most accurate thing but it does its job.

 

[meketrefe]

The saigas are fine. The only thing is their trigger abortion really sucks. The extender wishbone makes creep an eternity and
for the money they charge they should provide a nice stock conversion (like above) and leave a nicely tuned original trigger in the original position. A simple slant receiver will give them the leverage to do that that is what I want to do with the next AK modular build.
The rest is top quality from very hard russian steel. The molot VEPR is a tad better in terms of the steel thickness.
The saiga 308w is actually very accurate in the 16" version due to being beefed up for the 308 but they should make a 18" version
that still very compact and makes more sense for the 308w.
Overall they are very nice rifle to have. On a side note never buy SGM saiga magazines. They are plastic garbage and break by
simply dropping them loaded. Instead get the origninal that is a bad ass polymer or the promag but might need some conditioning
but it is an actual hard polymer. Tapco also work well although they might need a file and some conditioning.
Of course for the classic round one has all sort of surplus steel magazines that are virtually understandable if kept rust free.
The 10/30 rounds are not worthy because of the wasted length but they are good to have.
For the 5.56 saiga you have a very nice adapter that after some fitting will allow the saiga to work with AR magazines and quite
well actually. MSA makes the apapter and they also have a permanent modification to take just AR mags and includes LRBO
(last round bolt open) that is very nice. So a huge improvement to make a "Beryl" type platform.

 

[FRANKIE]

By your logic I don't even need the bullet button. I just need to keep a magazine inserted at all times. Can't accept a second mag, so I'm good.

The BB makes the magazine non detachable. Therefore not a detachable magazine. The logic works and has been upheld in CA, why would it be different in NY ?

Staying on topic with options "for" NY compliant AK-47 (AKM) not alternatives "to" the rifle titled in this thread;
If you must go the Bullet button route (fixed magazine),
NY doesn't like the bullet button opening where you can access the magazine release with a tool, bullet tip or anything of that matter.
It would be wise to close off the access hole and permanently weld the nuts to the back of the 4 fasteners; (where they must be removed by dremel)

In the top of the photo the BB is in original form. (with access)
The bottom of the photo, it has a steel
Plate spot welded in 3 places.
NO ACCESS TO MAGAZINE RELEASE. (fixed)
An old scrap receiver from a kit can be cannibalized to provide the steel plate.

 

[HEX]

My first saiga was $175 with tax included. Later I got a bunch in different calibers.
Now they are way overpriced.

I remember back when they used to sell the 12g and 410 Saigas at that price from ads in the back of shotgun news . Funny thing too, I had a friend way back then (15 years ago ? ) who told me I should buy them and predicted they would be huge in the future. At the time I didn't think much of it, but damn if he wasn't spot on. Sure wish I had listened to him now.

 

[Runner99]

A used Saiga rifle is still good value in the 600ish range.... I wouldn't pay above that, but if you can find one, you'll love it

Took mine to the range this evening actually.

7.62x39 model, puts on one hell of a lightshow

 

[Marine Cpl]

This is my opinion and my opinion only, but I would rather have a functional Saiga or Vepr that's legal out of the box that can be used for fun at the range or in a combat role successfully if needed compared to an AKM that you cannot load without taking the whole thing apart or in a bolt action configuration just so you can say you have something that they don't want you to have when in reality you have functionally neutered your rifle further than they require.

That's just me. I can see the day now when people here will be looking for ways to straight pull or fix magazines on Glocks after they are banned when other tried and true handguns like revolvers are out there that serve the purpose.

No offense to anyone here but this is a head shaker for me.

 

[carpediem]

This is my opinion and my opinion only, but I would rather have a functional Saiga or Vepr that's legal out of the box that can be used for fun at the range or in a combat role successfully if needed compared to an AKM that you cannot load without taking the whole thing apart or in a bolt action configuration just so you can say you have something that they don't want you to have when in reality you have functionally neutered your rifle further than they require.

That's just me. I can see the day now when people here will be looking for ways to straight pull or fix magazines on Glocks after they are banned when other tried and true handguns like revolvers are out there that serve the purpose.

No offense to anyone here but this is a head shaker for me.

I agree with you. I would do some slight mod if I could, like the shotgun version @meketrefe built. But, to me, a Saiga out of the box is a modified AK and is ready to shoot. Nobody can say "but it could be restored to an AW" because it never was one. Also, it retains enough of the AK to still essentially BE an AK. Never have messed with a VEPR, so I don't know much about those. What were those rifles @Pissed Off Patriot had? Yugo rifles or something? They were only slightly modified as I recall.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I agree with you. I would do some slight mod if I could, like the shotgun version @meketrefe built. But, to me, a Saiga out of the box is a modified AK and is ready to shoot. Nobody can say "but it could be restored to an AW" because it never was one. Also, it retains enough of the AK to still essentially BE an AK. Never have messed with a VEPR, so I don't know much about those. What were those rifles @Pissed Off Patriot had? Yugo rifles or something? They were only slightly modified as I recall.

I think he got a few regular AK's and outfitted them with Thumbhole Stocks that he filled with Bondo or something and refinished then.

 

[spat]

Staying on topic with options "for" NY compliant AK-47 (AKM) not alternatives "to" the rifle titled in this thread;
If you must go the Bullet button route (fixed magazine),
NY doesn't like the bullet button opening where you can access the magazine release with a tool, bullet tip or anything of that matter.
It would be wise to close off the access hole and permanently weld the nuts to the back of the 4 fasteners; (where they must be removed by dremel)
View attachment 2676
In the top of the photo the BB is in original form. (with access)
The bottom of the photo, it has a steel
Plate spot welded in 3 places.
NO ACCESS TO MAGAZINE RELEASE. (fixed)
An old scrap receiver from a kit can be cannibalized to provide the steel plate.

NY doesn't like you having an AK at all, even if you welded the mag to the receiver.

The law OTOH doesn't say anything about a BB being illegal. I doubt there is a single AG in the state who wants to be the guy arguing the BB is still detachable. They like to win cases, not get stuck arguing that a law says something it doesn't.

I can see how it would go in court with the .gov expert witness on the stand:

Could you demonstrate this rifle accepting the detachable magazine ?

Sure, you just insert it like this.​

OK, now can you demonstrate how it is detachable ?

Anyone got a screwdriver ?​

There are 10s of thousands of such rifles in NY. my odds of being the test case are pretty low. So until there is something resembling a precedent , I'm not going to make SAFE anymore ridiculous than it already is.

 

[Marine Cpl]

NY doesn't like you having an AK at all, even if you welded the mag to the receiver.

The law OTOH doesn't say anything about a BB being illegal. I doubt there is a single AG in the state who wants to be the guy arguing the BB is still detachable. They like to win cases, not get stuck arguing that a law says something it doesn't.

I can see how it would go in court with the .gov expert witness on the stand:

Could you demonstrate this rifle accepting the detachable magazine ?

Sure, you just insert it like this.​

OK, now can you demonstrate how it is detachable ?

Anyone got a screwdriver ?​

There are 10s of thousands of such rifles in NY. my odds of being the test case are pretty low. So until there is something resembling a precedent , I'm not going to make SAFE anymore ridiculous than it already is.

There are 10's of thousands of rifles in standard configurations that aren't registered too. So what's your point?

You do what you want. The fact of the matter is upon arrest, the police have to check the rifle for operability. To do so they will fire it and remove the magazine. In a court of law if it gets to that and you don't plead out, the prosecution will reinsert that magazine over and over to prove their point.

Although not law makers, the State Police have stated that a bullet button is kosher if it has epoxy over it where it cannot be removed. Whether that is true according to the law or not, the fact of the matter is if arrested, you have to defend yourself. Perhaps you have the money for a lawyer, bail, and time off work to do so. If you do, more power to you.

Many disagree with you including lawyers. A Google search will show you are in the minority. But you know what's best for yourself.

Good luck.