Off-duty police officers banned from carrying firearms at New York State Fair

[Will556]

I carry anywhere anyway…I don’t give shit. *Oh well*

 

[Truebeliever]

If they refused to enforce the SAFE act, then nobody would care about it.

You can't play the "just following orders" card.

Cops are a crucial part of any infringement, they absolutely have responsibility for every instance of it.

Again, how would you know? How many arrests have been made solely on a SAFE act and not an add-on to another charge or investigation that would have been an arrest under the law before the safe act.

 

[spat]

Again, how would you know? How many arrests have been made solely on a SAFE act and not an add-on to another charge or investigation that would have been an arrest under the law before the safe act.

People follow the safe act because they are afraid of being arrested.

How many gimped stocks and epoxied magazine releases are there in the state ?

That is solely because of the threat that law enforcement presents.

The job of law enforcement isn't to actually make arrests. If there is an arrest, you have already failed, because that means a crime was committed.

Your job is to present the threat of arrest to keep crimes from happening to begin with. In that respect you are part of the oppression whether you actually make an arrest or not.

 

[Truebeliever]

You do realize that being a cop is *not* statistically a very dangerous profession, right ?

I realize you like to play up the "putting their life on the line" rhetoric, but in actual fact probably half the people on this forum have more dangerous jobs than you do.

Top 25 most dangerous jobs in the United States

Roofers, power lineman, construction jobs are among the most dangerous jobs in the United States based on data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries and studied by AdvisorSmith.

www.ishn.com

Statistics from studies that scewed. It treats the overall profession including LE officers who are paper pushers and who have never made an arrest and departments that have statutory power of arrest but never do. Despite that, it’s still in the 15 most dangerous by those studies.

However, those studies don’t measure the danger. Just the serious injury and death rate per people. Astronauts have one of the most dangerous jobs but it doesn’t make the list because of the precautions taken.
Let someone put a bulletproof vest on you and shoot at you. If it hits the vest and you aren’t injured or they miss, it’s not registered on that study .

 

[Edwardteach72]

Yep. And we often do however, many off duty cops are required to carry off duty therefore are unable to attend these events .
Every often, we just can’t go to these events.

Well then don't carry and when asked by higher ups, tell them "I wasn't carrying at the fair because I was just following orders"


Bring a rape whistle if you are that scared

 

[99cummins]

You do realize that being a cop is *not* statistically a very dangerous profession, right ?

I realize you like to play up the "putting their life on the line" rhetoric, but in actual fact probably half the people on this forum have more dangerous jobs than you do.

Top 25 most dangerous jobs in the United States

Roofers, power lineman, construction jobs are among the most dangerous jobs in the United States based on data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries and studied by AdvisorSmith.

www.ishn.com

Spent 11 years picking up garbage. Been on a working farm my whole life. Currently fall in the highway maintenance worker category. Do some construction on the side. And have dabbled in some of the other categories. Working on my 4th of 5 roofs to do this summer. I’m living on the edge…

 

[spat]

Statistics from studies that scewed. It treats the overall profession including LE officers who are paper pushers and who have never made an arrest and departments that have statutory power of arrest but never do. Despite that, it’s still in the 15 most dangerous by those studies.

However, those studies don’t measure the danger. Just the serious injury and death rate per people. Astronauts have one of the most dangerous jobs but it doesn’t make the list because of the precautions taken.
Let someone put a bulletproof vest on you and shoot at you. If it hits the vest and you aren’t injured or they miss, it’s not registered on that study .

Yes, if you wear PPE that mitigates the danger, then you are in less danger.

Are you saying that roofers are undercounted because they wear fall protection?

Construction workers are undercounted because they wear hard hats ?

Surely the guy who's vest is protecting him from getting shot is in the same boat as the guy who survived a wrench hitting his head from 4 stories up because of his hard hat.

All of those professions have the same sort of conditions affecting the results.

I know you guys build your identity around being the "thin blue line" and "risking your life", but the reality is you're just like the garbage man, only a little safer.

Also, if you *think* you are in danger, but you aren't likely to experience serious injury or death, then you just don't understand danger.

 

[Truebeliever]

People follow the safe act because they are afraid of being arrested.

How many gimped stocks and epoxied magazine releases are there in the state ?

That is solely because of the threat that law enforcement presents.

The job of law enforcement isn't to actually make arrests. If there is an arrest, you have already failed, because that means a crime was committed.

Your job is to present the threat of arrest to keep crimes from happening to begin with. In that respect you are part of the oppression whether you actually make an arrest or not.

You can’t have it both ways. Some here argue that the job of LE is not to be the “ pre crime division like in minority report then say LE can’t stop someone because they suspect they might be or are about to commit a crime.
As an individual LEO, general crime reduction is more complicated than some know. For example, if a police officer stands outside and deters a robber from doing his crime there, did he do his job? Especially if the robber decides to just do the crime at the next convenience store? Or the cop who sits and waits for the guy to commit the robbery and catch him in the act?
Now, the threat of possible arrest therefore the police are to blame? No. It’s the lawmakers . How often does the average patrol officer go to the range or LGS to look for violations of the law? It wouldn’t be that hard to find something with all the BS laws NY has like the conversation laws etc.
Go look at the highway if you don’t believe me. How many go through speed limit? It used to be a felony to give a minor a Playboy magazine. How many arrests did you ever see for that?
Unless you can show me , a lot of pure SAFE arrests , you are just wrong as it applies to police officers in general. Of course, there is going to be the few A—- but they tend to be hated by their fellow cops too.

 

[Truebeliever]

Well then don't carry and when asked by higher ups, tell them "I wasn't carrying at the fair because I was just following orders"


Bring a rape whistle if you are that scared

Nope. The answer is just can’t go to the event or take your chances.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Nope. The answer is just can’t go to the event or take your chances.

Darn. Sounds like how "civilians" in NY have to live.. sucks to suck I guess

 

[Truebeliever]

Yes, if you wear PPE that mitigates the danger, then you are in less danger.

Are you saying that roofers are undercounted because they wear fall protection?

Construction workers are undercounted because they wear hard hats ?

Surely the guy who's vest is protecting him from getting shot is in the same boat as the guy who survived a wrench hitting his head from 4 stories up because of his hard hat.

All of those professions have the same sort of conditions affecting the results.

I know you guys build your identity around being the "thin blue line" and "risking your life", but the reality is you're just like the garbage man, only a little safer.

Also, if you *think* you are in danger, but you aren't likely to experience serious injury or death, then you just don't understand danger.

Yes, I am saying that. But the fall protection makes the roofing job a whole lot safer.
A friend of mine died because he didn’t have fall protection.
A big difference is that when the roofer comes off the roof, the danger is over. The cop can’t say when they are off duty, they are out of danger.

 

[Truebeliever]

Darn. Sounds like how "civilians" in NY have to live.. sucks to suck I guess

The difference is the threat for most “civilians”.
How often do you run into people who have attempted to physically hurt you in the past and want to kill you at these events?
And yes, there are “ civilians” in the same boat.
But the difference was I was pointing out is that the off duty officer is found not to be armed, he can and often will face disciplinary action especially if a crime occurred in front of them and they can’t do anything about it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The difference is the threat for most “civilians”.
How often do you run into people who have attempted to physically hurt you in the past and want to kill you at these events?
And yes, there are “ civilians” in the same boat.
But the difference was I was pointing out is that the off duty officer is found not to be armed, he can and often will face disciplinary action especially if a crime occurred in front of them and they can’t do anything about it.

Sucks to suck I guess.

 

[spat]

Yes, I am saying that. But the fall protection makes the roofing job a whole lot safer.
A friend of mine died because he didn’t have fall protection.
A big difference is that when the roofer comes off the roof, the danger is over. The cop can’t say when they are off duty, they are out of danger.

The roofer can still fall and hurt himself even when he's not at work.

Maybe he falls down the stairs at home.

But his risk is drastically reduced when he's not on the roof because the opportunity to fall is much reduced.

Just like the cop's risk is drastically reduced when *he's* not on the job either, since the vast majority of people will not even know he's a cop.

You *want* it to be different, but it isn't.

 

[spat]

The difference is the threat for most “civilians”.
How often do you run into people who have attempted to physically hurt you in the past and want to kill you at these events?
And yes, there are “ civilians” in the same boat.
But the difference was I was pointing out is that the off duty officer is found not to be armed, he can and often will face disciplinary action especially if a crime occurred in front of them and they can’t do anything about it.

So, just like everyone else who's disarmed by asinine policies then.

And not having a gun doesn't mean you can't do anything about such a crime.

In some countries most cops don't carry guns when *on* duty.

Your gun should only ever come into it when there is a credible threat of death or serious injury. Far too often in the US they come out for intimidation, and that is illegal, even if you never get prosecuted for it.

So, no, you don't need a gun to intervene in the vast majority of crimes you might encounter at the state fair LOL.

 

[Edwardteach72]

So, just like everyone else who's disarmed by asinine policies then.

And not having a gun doesn't mean you can't do anything about such a crime.

In some countries most cops don't carry guns when *on* duty.

Your gun should only ever come into it when there is a credible threat of death or serious injury. Far too often in the US they come out for intimidation, and that is illegal, even if you never get prosecuted for it.

So, no, you don't need a gun to intervene in the vast majority of crimes you might encounter at the state fair LOL.

Let's not forget.. cops don't have a duty to protect so.. hm problem solve go to the fair like everyone else.. if attacked pee your pants and try and defecate, dial 911.. oh also rape whistle

I really don't see the issue

 

[Tisto]

So you're saying the off duty cop is a target simply because he's a cop. And every person knows that HOW ? They must have a giant neon sign with an arrow pointing at them at all times, that says "I'm a cop !" I call bullshit. No off duty cop from Binghampton or White Plains going to the State fair is in ANY more danger than any other person going to the fair. You just want to be special and have your special perks. Well, get over yourself. You're no more special than anyone else. Boo dee fucking hoo. As far as I'm concerned, you should have no more "rights" than anyone else, and finally in this ONE circumstance, you don't - and you're crying about it !

 

[Will556]

They should update the laws/rules and change it so every law abiding citizen should be able to legally carry. Then there wouldn’t be an issue, problem solved.

 

[Saltwater60]

The difference is the threat for most “civilians”.
How often do you run into people who have attempted to physically hurt you in the past and want to kill you at these events?
And yes, there are “ civilians” in the same boat.
But the difference was I was pointing out is that the off duty officer is found not to be armed, he can and often will face disciplinary action especially if a crime occurred in front of them and they can’t do anything about it.

Really this is what you come up with? Honestly I’ll bet you don’t have this happen to you very often either. I know many cops, my dad was one for 34 years, my brothers been one for 20 years now and no one has attempted to harm them or kill them off the job. I won’t say there haven’t ever been threats, but this isn’t Hollywood it’s real life.
Also don’t you have additional training that civilians don’t have on how to deal with this and less lethal self defense tactics? I mean if everyone is unarmed there you shouldn’t have to worry about being shot.
Also on the flip side if you flashed your badge and another cop knew you were armed and a cop what do you think would happen? Do you really think another cop would jam you up for this? What’s the charge?

 

[kev74]

I used to work as an engineer tech for an engineering company. My job was to baby sit construction workers to make sure they did their jobs right. One day I saw one of the laborers start laughing to his buddy when I walked by. I asked him what he was laughing at. He told me his boss told the laborers to knock me in a hole and bury me if they got the chance. I worked on that job for over a year with 30 or 40 laborers who would have killed me if they got the chance. I never got any special privileges.

Now I work as a low level bureaucrat. For the last 10 years, I've pissed off between 3 and 5 people a day, every day. I've been threatened several times and had one guy get physical with me. Again, no special privileges.

Sometimes you just have to deal with it. It sucks that the off duty cops can't carry at the fair. But it sucks just as much that good people without badges can't carry either.

 

[togmaster]

I used to work as an engineer tech for an engineering company. My job was to baby sit construction workers to make sure they did their jobs right. One day I saw one of the laborers start laughing to his buddy when I walked by. I asked him what he was laughing at. He told me his boss told the laborers to knock me in a hole and bury me if they got the chance. I worked on that job for over a year with 30 or 40 laborers who would have killed me if they got the chance. I never got any special privileges.

Now I work as a low level bureaucrat. For the last 10 years, I've pissed off between 3 and 5 people a day, every day. I've been threatened several times and had one guy get physical with me. Again, no special privileges.

Sometimes you just have to deal with it. It sucks that the off duty cops can't carry at the fair. But it sucks just as much that good people without badges can't carry either.

Never piss off the guy with the backhoe. He can make you go away and never be found.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I carry anywhere anyway…I don’t give shit. *Oh well*

I was just about to post this very thing. This is just lip service. Do you all really think off duty guys are gonna abide by this? If they get caught then what?

 

[ICEMAN]

Yes, I am saying that. But the fall protection makes the roofing job a whole lot safer.
A friend of mine died because he didn’t have fall protection.
A big difference is that when the roofer comes off the roof, the danger is over. The cop can’t say when they are off duty, they are out of danger.

Quoted wrong post.
While there are more dangerous jobs, most don’t put family or friends at an increased risk for being with them. I understand both points and am retired law enforcement. I just won’t go to the fair.

 

[Celt]

Yes, I am saying that. But the fall protection makes the roofing job a whole lot safer.
A friend of mine died because he didn’t have fall protection.
A big difference is that when the roofer comes off the roof, the danger is over. The cop can’t say when they are off duty, they are out of danger.

I dont think anyone should think danger is over when they "punch out". Random violent crime is everywhere, road rage, polar bear hunting, muggings, rapes, etc...

I know this topic has evolved into a discussion regarding how our govt keeps different classes of citizens and its important to know who thinks its acceptable to have different rules for leos (on/off duty or retired) and every other civilian profession in this country.

If you believe that its ok to have different rules for leo or non leo then you should expect to catch flak on here for that. If you dont support that , but are merely stating the fact that our govt does in fact have different classes of law abiding citizens then you dont deserve any flak. Personally I cant tell what camp youre in on this.

 

[nortatoga]

Does this Governor have any idea just how bad this will affect the bottom line for the Donut Vendors, she is heartless!!!

 

[Celt]

They should update the laws/rules and change it so every law abiding citizen should be able to legally carry. Then there wouldn’t be an issue, problem solved.

I already knew what camp you were in. I appreciate you saying that and while you didnt ask for it, you have my respect for it.

 

[Cooolone]

A lot of big differences in a generalized way. A former LEO is a target for violence just based on his former profession. And often by people he doesn’t know. The attacks former and off duty officers( on their person and/or property) are so common that it doesn’t make the news.
A “ civilian “ might have an issue with a particular individual or group but unless they are famous, aren’t targeted in the same way.
There was an extreme example that I remember where an off duty police officer and his group were robbed at gunpoint. The off duty officer didn’t resist or identify himself . I am not even sure if he had his gun on him. They found his wallet with his ID card. The robber then cut off his finger so quote “ he can’t be a cop no more”.
A police officer’s family was followed home from church and attacked simply because the person hated cops. The cop had no previous police interaction with the attacker.
This is all too common.

This decision is discrimination against officers who are often required to carry off duty

So you're unwilling to say it was just a job right?

That the vocation of choice isn't really any different than another job.

You try to differentiate a "threat" or even "deadly threat" as somehow being different when applied to a person of a particular profession.

Any really now, it's SO COMMON but doesn't make the news? Say it ain't so... The news media would LOVE to promote such malfeasant activity!l

Like ANY other individual, life has choices and if & when the jobs danger is too high to tolerate, there is still choice of profession. Nobody forces any LEO to remain on the job.

Fact is, that vocation does not create a separate class of citizen. One that by their vocation is inherently more prone to danger than any one else, regardless of what you proclaim.

I don't want to begin exchanging scenarios because I'm sure I could find 1,000 to 1 on the grotesque manner in which violence is happened upon the non-leo population, basically because they don't enjoy that special privilege LE does in being armed in many municipalities that restrict average citizens.

I'm not any LE in any way shape or form, I support all they do and have family in the job as well.

That doesn't mean I wear Rose colored glasses though that taint my view! Step outside and be like any other man, the air is free and fresh, and is the same we all breathe! Submit yourself to the life that everyone else has to live, taste that air and let us know how it is. But don't cry when special privilege is removed, it doesn't resonate well with the average folk who have to hurdle ever higher obstructions in order to enjoy those privileges you've been bestowed with.

Anyways...

Have a great and wonderful day

 

[Rap]

I carry anywhere anyway…I don’t give shit. *Oh well*

I'm interested in this "new technology" that the State Fair is employing to screen people for guns at the gate. Maybe have a go at it. What's the penalty -- won't they just turn you away if found to be carrying (and not yet inside the fairgrounds)?

 

[Cooolone]

I'm interested in this "new technology" that the State Fair is employing to screen people for guns at the gate. Maybe have a go at it. What's the penalty -- won't they just turn you away if found to be carrying (and not yet inside the fairgrounds)?

Maybe they're borrowing NYPD's X-ray Vans that scan pedestrians who walk by... Think airport scanner on wheels!

But hey, they don't talk about them, how many they have or use, what gy (radiation) it produces... Only that they use(d) them!!! Lol

 

[Saltwater60]

I'm interested in this "new technology" that the State Fair is employing to screen people for guns at the gate. Maybe have a go at it. What's the penalty -- won't they just turn you away if found to be carrying (and not yet inside the fairgrounds)?

Remember the fair runs after 9/1 and on 9/1 and beyond it’s a felony.