Open Carry (security vs. us)

[Chevusa]

I know from looking around that people have mixed opinions of the legality of open carrying a pistol in NY. The only reason I'm bringing this up is because a friend owns a security company and has discussed having me become certified for armed security to do jobs for him on occasion. He gets good gigs at events around town and also some personal protection details for high profile people when they are in town.

From seeing the guys in action, I know they all openly carry pistols when they are working a job, often times standing shoulder to shoulder with uniformed police.

Here comes the logic and question. Armed security guards must have a license for the pistol under 400 - 2 (F). Same license as everyone else has. They do have to go through a 47 hour course that includes range qualification, but doesn't grant anything beyond what is in penal law 400. If they are legal to open carry, so must everyone else be with the same license 400 - 2 (F). There is nothing written saying no open carry, or carry concealed only. There is nothing saying concealed except for a) hunting b) security c).........

This isn't meant to be a "I wouldn't if I were you!" or "it's not a good idea!" thread. It's about the logic of everyone having the same license therefore having the same legal standing and abilities. Laws are written. If it's not written, it's not a law, and is not an arrest-able offense. I've even seen letters from the courts saying people may carry openly or concealed. The law says to "HAVE and carry concealed". Put all of that aside though, that is what is debatable - perhaps - but what is not debatable is the fact that armed guards, drivers, security etc. all carry openly without trouble on the same license we have.

Why?

 

[spat]

I know from looking around that people have mixed opinions of the legality of open carrying a pistol in NY. The only reason I'm bringing this up is because a friend owns a security company and has discussed having me become certified for armed security to do jobs for him on occasion. He gets good gigs at events around town and also some personal protection details for high profile people when they are in town.

From seeing the guys in action, I know they all openly carry pistols when they are working a job, often times standing shoulder to shoulder with uniformed police.

Here comes the logic and question. Armed security guards must have a license for the pistol under 400 - 2 (F). Same license as everyone else has. They do have to go through a 47 hour course that includes range qualification, but doesn't grant anything beyond what is in penal law 400. If they are legal to open carry, so must everyone else be with the same license 400 - 2 (F). There is nothing written saying no open carry, or carry concealed only. There is nothing saying concealed except for a) hunting b) security c).........

This isn't meant to be a "I wouldn't if I were you!" or "it's not a good idea!" thread. It's about the logic of everyone having the same license therefore having the same legal standing and abilities. Laws are written. If it's not written, it's not a law, and is not an arrest-able offense. I've even seen letters from the courts saying people may carry openly or concealed. The law says to "HAVE and carry concealed". Put all of that aside though, that is what is debatable - perhaps - but what is not debatable is the fact that armed guards, drivers, security etc. all carry openly without trouble on the same license we have.

Why?

The same reason that hunters can open carry, and the reason that all the handguns sitting in my safe are perfectly legal despite the fact that I'm not "carrying them concealed" at the moment.

PL400 exempts you from prosecution for possession (the only actual relevant crime).

The "and carry concealed" language is there only because at the time of adoption of the Sullivan act concealed carry was widely illegal (but possession and open carry was allowed). It is an additional grant beyond just the permission to possess.

"Not only may the bearer of this permit possess a handgun that would be otherwise illegal, he may conceal it on his person as well"

So, the short answer is that there is no crime to prosecute for, and that is reflected in the lack of convictions of permitted open carriers over the 100+ year history of the law.

Now, people *do* get jammed up by pissing others off by open carrying. Even on this board some people seem to think that if enough people call to complain about a perfectly legal activity that the cops should show up and "find something" to make you stop.

I recall a thread not to long ago about a guy fishing while OCing a rifle as a 2A protest. Some people even here seemed to think that the police did the right thing harassing him, because a Karen and her clones called to complain a lot.

 

[Criticalt]

A friend of mine has been an openly armed security guard in NYS for 20 years.
After the required training, a certufied NYS security guard or armoured car driver can carry openly while "on the job".
You also need your NYS carry permit too of course.

 

[Chevusa]

A friend of mine has been an openly armed security guard in NYS for 20 years.
After the required training, a certufied NYS security guard or armoured car driver can carry openly while "on the job".
You also need your NYS carry permit too of course.

I understand this, but where does it say so in the law? The point is - it doesn't. I have the same permit as your friend. I can legally open carry wherever and whenever he can. Show me the written law that says he can and I can't. There is no written law saying hunters, security guards etc. can open carry and all others must conceal. The general business law concerning armed guards makes no mention of this, only says they must be licensed under 400, the same license I have.

 

[Criticalt]

I understand this, but where does it say so in the law? The point is - it doesn't. I have the same permit as your friend. I can legally open carry wherever and whenever he can. Show me the written law that says he can and I can't. There is no written law saying hunters, security guards etc. can open carry and all others must conceal. The general business law concerning armed guards makes no mention of this, only says they must be licensed under 400, the same license I have.

No clue
I just know that the 3 places he has worked have required him to have the cert.
Otherwise they wiuldnt hire him.
I know the cert is through the NYSDOJ.....so maybe call them.

 

[Criticalt]

I understand this, but where does it say so in the law? The point is - it doesn't. I have the same permit as your friend. I can legally open carry wherever and whenever he can. Show me the written law that says he can and I can't. There is no written law saying hunters, security guards etc. can open carry and all others must conceal. The general business law concerning armed guards makes no mention of this, only says they must be licensed under 400, the same license I have.

Bill Search and Legislative Information | New York State Assembly

News and Information from the New York State Assembly

assembly.state.ny.us

 

[Chevusa]

Bill Search and Legislative Information | New York State Assembly

News and Information from the New York State Assembly

assembly.state.ny.us

That's for high capacity mags and hasn't been passed into law. Looks like its been dead for several years.

 

[Criticalt]

That's for high capacity mags and hasn't been passed into law. Looks like its been dead for several years.

Im on my phone, cant read shit that small.
Oh well

 

[Criticalt]

That's for high capacity mags and hasn't been passed into law. Looks like its been dead for several years.

Appatently there is a special licence for open carry guards.

NYS Division of Licensing Services

 

[Chevusa]

Appatently there is a special licence for open carry guards.

NYS Division of Licensing Services

There is security and armed security. That is all. Armed does not specify anything other than you need the 47 hour course and must possess a pistol license 400 - 2 (f). I have already stated this.

 

[Criticalt]

There is security and armed security. That is all. Armed does not specify anything other than you need the 47 hour course and must possess a pistol license 400 - 2 (f). I have already stated this.

Right
And after you get all the training and get your certificate, you send that with your application.
Its more than the 47 hours though.
Its on the job training and yearly training also.
After all that NYS allows you to open carry on the job.
Its all right there.

 

[Criticalt]

Alot more than 47 hours. You must have ongoing training.

Armed Security Guard

Initial Training Requirements:
8 Hour Pre-Assignment Training - A general introductory course. You must complete this course and submit a copy of the certificate issued to you with your security guard application.

16 Hour On-The-Job Training (OJT) - A course relevant to the duties of guards, requirements of the work site, and the needs of the employer. You must complete this training within 90 days of employment as a security guard.

47 Hour Firearms Training - You must possess a valid NYS Pistol Permit and security guard registration to enroll in this course. Upon successful completion of this course, submit a copy of the certificate with your application for an armed guard registration upgrade.
Annual Training Requirements:
8 Hour Annual In-Service Training - This course must be completed each calendar year you hold an armed security guard registration. Your registration is issued for two years, therefore, you must complete two 8 Hour Annual In-Service training courses within your registration effective and expiration dates to be eligible for renewal; and

8 Hour Annual Firearms Training - This course must also be completed each calendar year you hold an armed security guard registration. Your registration is issued for two years, therefore, you must complete two 8 Hour Annual Firearms training courses within your registration effective and expiration dates to be eligible for renewal.

Peace Officer

 

[Chevusa]

Right
And after you get all the training and get your certificate, you send that with your application.
Its more than the 47 hours though.
Its on the job training and yearly training also.
After all that NYS allows you to open carry on the job.
Its all right there.

Cite the exact text stating open carry please. (hint: it does not exist) You still need to have the permit 400 - 2 (F). The same permit as everyone else has. Per the penal law, if it is legal for them to do it, it is legal for everyone else with the same permit to do it. That is my entire point. Nowhere is any exception made in the law for security guards to carry any differently than anyone else.

 

[Criticalt]

Cite the exact text stating open carry please. (hint: it does not exist) You still need to have the permit 400 - 2 (F). The same permit as everyone else has. Per the penal law, if it is legal for them to do it, it is legal for everyone else with the same permit to do it. That is my entire point. Nowhere is any exception made in the law for security guards to carry any differently than anyone else.

Its all 100% right there.
Cant be any more clear.
Its an "upgraded" permit from NYS.
Its right there.
Yes, you must have the regular permit, then other training.

 

[Chevusa]

Its all 100% right there.
Cant be any more clear.
Its an "upgraded" permit from NYS.
Its right there.
Yes, you must have the regular permit, then other training.

It is a license to be an armed guard. That is all. If there were special exceptions they would be in writing and not something you would have to assume for yourself. If exists nowhere in written law. Where does it say only carry openly at the job site? where does it say anything at all? It doesn't. Just that you have to be certified to do it as your actual job. It isn't upgrading your pistol permit. It is a guard card.

 

[Criticalt]

It is a license to be an armed guard. That is all. If there were special exceptions they would be in writing and not something you would have to assume for yourself. If exists nowhere in written law. Where does it say only carry openly at the job site? where does it say anything at all? It doesn't. Just that you have to be certified to do it as your actual job. It isn't upgrading your pistol permit. It is a guard card.

From what im seeing, there is just an "armed guard", concealed or open doesnt matter, its just armed.
No clue but there is no mention of open or consealed.
My buddy has done both for different jobs.
It looks like it doesnt matter.
You just need the advanced training to work as an armed guard.

 

[Chevusa]

From what im seeing, there is just an "armed guard", concealed or open doesnt matter, its just armed.
No clue but there is no mention of open or consealed.
My buddy has done both for different jobs.
It looks like it doesnt matter.
You just need the advanced training to work as an armed guard.

Understood, but the law allowing you to possess said pistol is the same allowing me and everyone else to. 400-2 (F)

This is an occupational license. Not a weapon license. The same rules apply under PL 400.

Therefore open carry must be legal and included under "to have" in 400-2 (F).

 

[Chevusa]

Found this searching around. Pretty interesting read.

The origins of concealed carry laws seem clearly addressed by the courts, and further research should move forward from this clearly established point. Concealed carry laws were not passed with the legislative purpose of mandating licensed concealed carry, necessarily (not sure how soon after the prohibitions started licensing programs started), nor for the purpose of outlawing all carry, but to force all (unregulated) carry to be open:

The purpose of all concealment statutes is clear. At the time they were enacted, the open carrying of weapons upon the person, was not prohibited. The purpose of the concealed weapons statutes was to prevent men in sudden quarrel or in the commission of crime from drawing concealed weapons and using them without prior notice to their victims that they were armed. The person assailed to attacked would behave one way if he knew his assailant was armed and perhaps another way if he could safely presume that he was unarmed.
People v. Raso (NY County Ct. 1958)
Apparently the legislative history of "have and carry concealed" spans more than a century in New York beginning with the institution of restricted carry in 1905 and continuing with the 1911 Sullivan Laws when and where "have" may very well have referred to some form of open carry.

In a very very recent licensing case the court discusses open carry specifically:

Article 400 of the Penal Law “is the exclusive statutory mechanism for the licensing of firearms in New York State.” O'Connor v. Scarpino, 83 N.Y.2d 919, 920, 615 N.Y.S.2d 305, 638 N.E.2d 950 (1994). Licenses are limited to persons over twenty-one, of good moral character, without a history of crime or mental illness, and “concerning whom no good cause exists for *79 the denial of the license.” N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(1). There are several types of pistol and revolver licenses, including licenses for household possession, see N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(2)(a), for workplace possession, see N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(2)(b), and to “have and carry concealed,” see N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(2)(f). The last, a carry license, may issue only for “proper cause.” FN6 Id.

New York requires a carry license for the concealed and open carrying of firearms. See N.Y. Penal Law §§ 265.01, 265.02, 400.00(2)(d)-(f). This general approach to the concealed and open carrying of firearms is distinct from that of some other States, which have laws specifically addressing the carrying of concealed firearms. See, e.g., Cal.Penal Code § 12025 (defining crime of “carrying a concealed firearm” and explaining that “[f]irearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed”); Va.Code Ann. § 18.2-308(A) (defining crime of “carr[ying] about [one's] person, hidden from common observation, ... any pistol”); see also N.Y. Joint Legislative Comm. on Firearms & Ammunition, N.Y. Legislative Doc. No. 29 at 13 (N.Y.1962) (“[T]he historic factor of whether the firearm is carried openly or concealed has frequently been decisive. Apparently in only nine (Conn.[,]D.C., Hawaii, Ind., Mass., N.M., N.Y., Tex., W.Va.) of the forty-five prohibiting jurisdictions does the prohibition extend to openly carried firearms.”).
Bach v. Pataki 408 F.3d 75 (NY App. 2005).
That is to say, of the 45 [at the time this decision was written] jurisdictions that have laws regarding licensure to carry firearms concealed, 36 address concealed carry ONLY and thereby tacitly allow Open Carry and 9 prohibit it outright or allow it through licensure. (Conn. for example is a state that allows open carry if one is issued a pistol permit). D.C. and Texas are the only Open Carry "non-permissive" states on that list (besides NY, but thats what we're arguing at this point) so I'm sure that when they say the prohibition is extended they don't mean to say, necessarily, that Open Carry is outlawed outright in those states, I know this is a little unclear and I had to read it a few dozen times to make sure thats not what they meant. The preceding sentence clearly implies that New York licenses open carry through 400.00...not just implies but says outright, "New York requires a carry license for the concealed and open carrying of firearms." It seems fairly conclusive that "have" would be the word within 400.00(2)(f) that provides for what the court asserts here.

 

[Chevusa]

Doesn't seem like a court of law would give you one of these letters if it was illegal to open carry. My permit is unrestricted so the limited activities listed would not apply in my case.

 

[stokes]

I believe the armed security guard exemption is covered in the CPL just like LEO's.Too lazy to look it up and honestly dont give a fuck.

 

[Chevusa]

I believe the armed security guard exemption is covered in the CPL just like LEO's.Too lazy to look it up and honestly dont give a fuck.

It is not....

 

[spat]

No clue
I just know that the 3 places he has worked have required him to have the cert.
Otherwise they wiuldnt hire him.
I know the cert is through the NYSDOJ.....so maybe call them.

The cert is a requirement for the job, but is completely separate than the carry license.

Just like a drivers license. The armed guard requires his professional license and a driver's license to do his job. But the professional license doesn't give him any additional right to drive anything his drivers license didn't already give him.

 

[Celt]

Interesting take on this topic. I prefer to carry concealed but it would be nice to not have to worry about open carry.

 

[Chevusa]

How would this not apply to all of us?
If you don’t want to watch the video, the Court rules open carry of weapons is permitted by the Constitution where concealed carry may be regulated.

 

[Cooolone]

If there were special exceptions they would be in writing and not something you would have to assume for yourself.

So, my take is a reverse psychology type thing...

You're looking for written permission to act in a certain manner. When I've always accepted the fact that I don't need permission! So if it isn't written (restricting or otherwise controlling) an activity is not unlawful! And for the point, yes, there is a reason they leave it vague and arbitrary, so when they feel it's necessary, they can throw something at ya'...

Again, just my take, if it's not specifically written saying NO GO! Then it's good!

Also, I'm not sure, in those situations, ie, Executive Protection, I want my firearm like a billboard for all to see!

Good luck finding what you're looking for, I don't think you're gonna find it (answer).

 

[Chevusa]

So, my take is a reverse psychology type thing...

You're looking for written permission to act in a certain manner. When I've always accepted the fact that I don't need permission! So if it isn't written (restricting or otherwise controlling) an activity is not unlawful! And for the point, yes, there is a reason they leave it vague and arbitrary, so when they feel it's necessary, they can throw something at ya'...

Again, just my take, if it's not specifically written saying NO GO! Then it's good!

Also, I'm not sure, in those situations, ie, Executive Protection, I want my firearm like a billboard for all to see!

Good luck finding what you're looking for, I don't think you're gonna find it (answer).

I agree. Point being if it’s ok for one person to do it but not another even though they have the same license there would have to be a written exemption in the law for a specific job or location. There isn’t. Therefore it must be ok for everyone with that license to do so. 400 - 2 (F)

 

[Tisto]

I too was always under the impression that open carry of a handgun was illegal in N.Y. but I thought there were exceptions for "inside place of business" and such. Reading through all this makes me wonder. I know for a fact that I have had various LEO officials see me in what was my place of business ( I had a deli ) with a pistol openly on my hip. Not once did any one of them question me about it, ever. A couple times they said something about it, but it was always "nice Sig..." or something to that effect.

To bolster this, I was once walking along a country road carrying a shotgun slung across my back, and had a pistol openly in a low drop leg holster. A Sheriff deputy rolled to a stop and asked a few questions, but never commented upon the guns. He was actually more interested in my hunting license. This happened in known bear country during spring turkey season. ( aka grumpy, protective momma bear season ) The area I was in happens to be where 3 different WMU's come together, and the deputy knew it. He asked appropriate questions, and I provided legitimate answers. Nothing came of it, other than him laughing about me falling in a creek, breaking my compass, and getting turned around in a section of woods I thought I knew well. Soaked and covered in mud, I found a road and figured out where I was, and headed back toward camp. I'm sure that this encounter was just chance. None of the people in the area would have called to report a man walking along the road with a gun.

This makes me wonder though, if open carry is legal, albeit greatly discouraged in N.Y.

 

[Acer-m14]

few months ago at work had a complaint from a Karen or 2 .. seen 2 guys walking the truck stop parking lot with open carry pistol .. omg ..
they freaked out .. you have security here walking around ..

i have seen them before and they are Armored Truck Drivers .. i didn't ask what there load was lol .. but did chat with them .. cool guys ..

i think the 2 Karen's might have been lot lizards lol ..

 

[Elwood]

In regards to open carry, yeah you’ll get tired of that shit real quick, the awesomeness of it wears off in about a week once you get it caught on a few things and you realize that your the center of attention everywhere you go. I get dirty looks from the anti morons all the time. As well as having to scrutinize every sketchy looking individual that is fascinated by the sight of an open pistol on someone’s hip.

 

[Marine Cpl]

As written, open carry is illegal for security and us because we do not have an exemption for it. It’s a poorly written law with unintended illegality just the same as when they forgot to exempt cops when the safe act was passed. The only difference is that they didn’t amend it for us to fix it like they did with the police. It just isn’t enforced for security just the same as it isn’t enforced for us when hunting, at the range, or on private property.

I do not feel like getting into a pissing match here but anyone with a good grasp of reading comprehension can see that all carry and possession is illegal via penal law 265 unless exempted via penal law 400. The exemptions listed in penal law 400 is possession only if you get premise license and to have and carry concealed if you get license F. There is no exemption for any other method of carry besides concealed.