Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
This is stupid and beyond stupid. What does it matter. She’s a farm and grows on her own property. Do all grocery stores grow their own produce in orchard park. Sign this petition to help her out.
Orchard park farm stand shutdown because produce is not grown on site. Petition to get it reopened.
- Thread starter Saltwater60
- Start date
Deplorable Me
.700 Nitro Express
Death by government.
@thewheels
.308 Win
Just hand her the variance.
Why do free men need to beg for permission for doing clearly legal activities.
Why do free men need to beg for permission for doing clearly legal activities.
@thewheels
.308 Win
You'd be upset if your neighbor got their FFL and started selling firearms out of their basement?
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
guess it doesn't have the government's required 
land 
count that they allow
Deplorable Me
.700 Nitro Express
15 years in business, same location. Over zealous zoning enforcement.
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I lived and worked in that town for over 60 years, until I threw in the towel and moved to NC.
Screw them. They suck big time.
Screw them. They suck big time.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I'm going to have to go with @BuffNiag on this one. I have a lot of sympathy for any small business who wants to make a go of it. I was also a member of my Town's Zoning Board of Appeals (ZBA) for years including several years as chairman. Matter of fact I was on it until I was elected judge last year.
You can disagree with zoning but then the burden is on you to approach your Town Board to get it changed. As mentioned in the article there's also a variance process. Simple variances, in my experience, generally take two months. First month's meeting you go to the ZBA, state your case, and if it's reasonable 9 times out 10 the board will grant it pending a state mandated public hearing the following month. The next month they hold a public hearing and listen to anything that the community has to say. Now, it doesn't matter if a 100 or a even a 1000 people come out in opposition to it the board can still grant the variance (or reverse scenario is true even if everyone in the community loves and supports it they can still deny it) but they need to have the public hearing.
If she was properly notified of the need to get a variance then I'm sorry but that's on her. You have to treat everyone the same. Most folks probably wouldn't have an issue with a farm stand but what if it's a pawn shop, a methadone clinic, or an adult book store? Or maybe it's something wholesome but it'll be located in a residential neighborhood and it's going to significantly increase traffic, noise, etc. I'd be upset by that if it was near where I lived and it went against zoning (although I may make an exception for gold-plated dildo manufacturers). I know in my Town the Building Department is very diligent about making sure situations like this get addressed as quickly as possible so people can get the variances or special use permits (those are issued by Planning Boards) that they need.
I can think of several examples from my Town or neighboring Towns where business owners felt like thumbing their noses at zoning just for spite. If they had played by the rules they could've gotten everything they wanted quickly, without much fuss, and for little in the way of permit fees. Instead they racked up fines and court costs and eventually had to stop their business completely. There are lots of people out there who think the rules don't apply to them.
Now I'm not saying that's the case here. It's entirely possible the Town (or someone in the Town) has a beef against them and is purposely giving them a hard time. It's concerning to me that they're not explicitly saying what part of the code she's violating. Our Code Enforcement Officer prints out a copy of the relevant section of code and highlights the passages that they need to adhere to. If they're not making it clear what she needs to do to make her business compliant then that's a serious problem and she has every right to be upset and perhaps even bring suit against the municipality.
You can disagree with zoning but then the burden is on you to approach your Town Board to get it changed. As mentioned in the article there's also a variance process. Simple variances, in my experience, generally take two months. First month's meeting you go to the ZBA, state your case, and if it's reasonable 9 times out 10 the board will grant it pending a state mandated public hearing the following month. The next month they hold a public hearing and listen to anything that the community has to say. Now, it doesn't matter if a 100 or a even a 1000 people come out in opposition to it the board can still grant the variance (or reverse scenario is true even if everyone in the community loves and supports it they can still deny it) but they need to have the public hearing.
If she was properly notified of the need to get a variance then I'm sorry but that's on her. You have to treat everyone the same. Most folks probably wouldn't have an issue with a farm stand but what if it's a pawn shop, a methadone clinic, or an adult book store? Or maybe it's something wholesome but it'll be located in a residential neighborhood and it's going to significantly increase traffic, noise, etc. I'd be upset by that if it was near where I lived and it went against zoning (although I may make an exception for gold-plated dildo manufacturers). I know in my Town the Building Department is very diligent about making sure situations like this get addressed as quickly as possible so people can get the variances or special use permits (those are issued by Planning Boards) that they need.
I can think of several examples from my Town or neighboring Towns where business owners felt like thumbing their noses at zoning just for spite. If they had played by the rules they could've gotten everything they wanted quickly, without much fuss, and for little in the way of permit fees. Instead they racked up fines and court costs and eventually had to stop their business completely. There are lots of people out there who think the rules don't apply to them.
Now I'm not saying that's the case here. It's entirely possible the Town (or someone in the Town) has a beef against them and is purposely giving them a hard time. It's concerning to me that they're not explicitly saying what part of the code she's violating. Our Code Enforcement Officer prints out a copy of the relevant section of code and highlights the passages that they need to adhere to. If they're not making it clear what she needs to do to make her business compliant then that's a serious problem and she has every right to be upset and perhaps even bring suit against the municipality.
spat
.950 JDJ
I'd be upset if my neighbor put a 20 foot BLM sign in their front yard too, but I don't think I should be able to stop them. How does *I don't want them to do that* become *the government should stop them from doing that* ?
It's their yard, they should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn't spill over into yours.
Ummm, no this is why zoning exists. Where does it end? Asphalt plant? Pig farm? Our country would look like a third world shithole if we didn't have zoning.
There is a good chance a 20' BLM sign (or any sign) wouldn't be allowed anyway, depending on the exact location.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
It actually probably would. It's commercial speech vs. political speech. Municipalities have wide leeway to regulate commercial speech (think signage advertising a business). Political speech (think political lawn signs or BLM signs) on the other hand you really can't do much about since it's a First Amendment issue.
A few years back I sat on a committee to review my Town's sign ordinance and we talked a lot about these issues.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Like it or not that's the whole point of Zoning. In NYS municipalities have wide latitude to decide what can be done in certain zones. They can be as strict or as lenient as they want to be. If you happen to be in a strict zone and the business or activity you want to do is not allowed there are processes you can go through to allow you to do it. If you don't go through that process you're out of luck.
Again, if you want to change zoning you can always petition your Town/Village Board or City Council.
Been around that long how about grandfather clause?
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I can tell you this sign is no longer up.
Anti SAFE Act Sign Case Delayed
A Hamburg judge has recused himself from a case involving a resident charged with having a banner on his fence.www.wgrz.com
Is it because the owner took it down because the Town made him?
I can't say for certain that there's NEVER an opportunity regulate political speech (as far as signage goes) but my experience has been that it's exceedingly difficult. If the owner of that sign really wanted to bring it to a higher court on an appeal he would probably have a case. @Celt had a situation several years back where his Anti-SAFE Act sign was defaced by police and was allowed to put it back up (if I'm remembering the situation correctly).
spat
.950 JDJ
All zoning laws are an infringement.
There are major cities without them. If Houston Texas can manage not to turn into a shithole without zoning laws I think anyplace can.
If you don't want an asphalt plant or a pig farm next to you, you should buy the lots. If you can't afford them, then you shouldn't have a say in what use they are put to.
In the real world though, people tend to behave themselves. The people who want to build asphalt plants and pig farms don't want to do that in a residential neighborhood anymore than the residents want them there.
If it gets real bad, then sue the neighbor for whatever damage they have done to your property interest.
spat
.950 JDJ
There are a lot of things in NYS that shouldn't be the way they are.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
NYS is not the only state that has zoning. In fact most states have zoning authority at some level of government.
I think zoning can be a useful tool and positive if it's used effectively and fairly.
spat
.950 JDJ
You are correct, Zoning is almost universal in the US.
But Huston is proof that it's not necessary.
It can, but I don't like having to trust the government to use things "effectively and fairly". Their track record is on that is absolutely terrible.
So I'd prefer we err on the side of "don't give them any more power than is absolutely necessary to keep society from coming apart at the seams".
I mean, a universal gun registry could be a "useful tool and positive if it's used effectively and fairly" but I don't think any of us want to trust them with one of those..
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
How is Houston proof that it's not necessary? (asking seriously)
Is Zoning ripe for abuse? Sure it can be. But there's "safety valves" so to speak in the Zoning Board of Appeals (ZBA) process that I mentioned in one of my previous posts.
On a whole I agree with you. Limited government is the best government. But I'm also not totally anti-regulation either.
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
In short, after the story blew up the town left me alone and I kept my sign up for many years until it was finally deteriorated from age and weather. As of next week it'll actually be 7 years since that happened.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Do you recall what their rationale was for forcibly removing the sign? Did it violate height or setback ordinances or something?
spat
.950 JDJ
Houston Texas is a very large city with no zoning laws.
They are the counter example for all the naysayers that claim they are necessary.
If a city of over 2 million people can make it work, any place can.
I am not completely anti-regulation. I just find the vast majority of them unnecessary, and if they aren't absolutely necessary to a functioning society they shouldn't exist. Zoning falls in that category because it's been proven to be unnecessary.
Catskillkid
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Houston doesn’t have zoning, but there are workarounds
So this is definitely something I'll need to read and learn more about, but from my quick Google search while Houston does not have zoning it is not without regulation or planning for that matter. My quick read through of the article suggests they utilize other tools to accomplish much of the same thing, though, admittedly they have no Zoning to apply use regulations to areas. However, it does look there are things like covenants and deed restrictions that again, accomplish much of the same thing.
At this moment though (and this is strictly my opinion) while a Houston type example may work in some cases, I think many other cases would benefit from more traditional zoning.
spat
.950 JDJ
Well, certainly there are forces that act to manage development. But market based forces are far more resistant to corruption than government edicts.
Deed restrictions are a good example. They are voluntarily enacted by the current owner of the property. If they want to cede their rights that is their business. While I personally detest HOAs I don't think they are a fundamental infringement on personal rights. The owner of the land voluntarily ceded that authority, and every subsequent owner knew or should have known what they were buying.
Celt
.450/400 Nitro Ex
They claimed that the town owns the first 5 feet from the edge of the road, but my property deed states that my property extends to the 8-foot mark from the center of the roadway.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
Y
Im sure what it is at this point is they are calling her a retailer instead of agricultural because they don’t grow on site.
I’ve spoken with many farmers in these areas and essentially the towns are trying to force people out like this so they can develop the land and get more tax base. They are criminals.
I get the whole variance thing but that doesn’t mean it will be granted. I wanted a variance for my addition on my last home but my town never even gave me the chance to get it. They waited to tell me I’d need one until there were holes in my house and I couldn’t wait. I ad to move forward with the construction of my addition. It’s a bunch of bullshit in most cases. Why can’t I have an 8’ fence in my backyard. What’s the reasoning? Why can’t I push my steps out 3’ more like I wanted to for my addition. Many other homes in my area have steps closer to the sidewalk that I would have had. Of course they are grandfathered in. Their suggestion was to put the steps into my driveway when they have a town ordinance of no parking in the street overnight. How would that be possible?
Yes it does. The only issue is the produce is not grown on site because they have grown out of the space they have out back of the home. Same farm same location as 15 years they just moved the produce production to another location. It’s been there for years. I’m sure a neighbor got pissed when it grew or someone parked on their lawn.
Im sure what it is at this point is they are calling her a retailer instead of agricultural because they don’t grow on site.
I’ve spoken with many farmers in these areas and essentially the towns are trying to force people out like this so they can develop the land and get more tax base. They are criminals.
I get the whole variance thing but that doesn’t mean it will be granted. I wanted a variance for my addition on my last home but my town never even gave me the chance to get it. They waited to tell me I’d need one until there were holes in my house and I couldn’t wait. I ad to move forward with the construction of my addition. It’s a bunch of bullshit in most cases. Why can’t I have an 8’ fence in my backyard. What’s the reasoning? Why can’t I push my steps out 3’ more like I wanted to for my addition. Many other homes in my area have steps closer to the sidewalk that I would have had. Of course they are grandfathered in. Their suggestion was to put the steps into my driveway when they have a town ordinance of no parking in the street overnight. How would that be possible?
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Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
I was hoping for more than this from you on Orchard Park. Come on!!
Justincase
.308 Win
You can't have political signs for the most part in Orchard Park. I forget the stupid rules as to when they apply and when they don't.
That town is the epitome of hoity toity. Starts in the town hall, through the police, and right on through the asses who live there.
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
I have run into this shit before, from "building inspectors and zoning fucks" from working on New construction housing. These people develop a God complex. They have all the power and they can shut you down for FOR ANY REASON. , From my experience, once they dislike you, the hate will run deep, and it will be a very long time before you're granted any "permissions"
these people have the community by the balls, and they generally DO NOT like to let go. Even though this Farm has not needed "permission" for the last 15 years, all of a sudden the place is a problem because "the produce was not grown on site"
You have got to be kidding me, THATS YOUR EXCUSE. This is government stifling small business, AGAIN! This is New Yorkistan doing it's best to try and get everyone on the government dole. YOU ARE NOT WORTHY TO RUN A BUSINESS IN NEW YORKISTAN
I can not wait to GTFO of here
these people have the community by the balls, and they generally DO NOT like to let go. Even though this Farm has not needed "permission" for the last 15 years, all of a sudden the place is a problem because "the produce was not grown on site"
You have got to be kidding me, THATS YOUR EXCUSE. This is government stifling small business, AGAIN! This is New Yorkistan doing it's best to try and get everyone on the government dole. YOU ARE NOT WORTHY TO RUN A BUSINESS IN NEW YORKISTAN
I can not wait to GTFO of here