Plaintiffs needed to sue NYS over ban on non NY residents getting NY CCW permits

[VietnamEraVet]

Hey Everybody,

Saw this today on Gun and Gadgets channel. There is legal talent lined up and ready to sue NYS over refusal to allow non residents to have NYS CCW permits. If anyone here is living outside NYS and has a permit in their home state, and wants to be able to carry in NY, this should interest you.

Check it out:

 

[Jsmegs77]

If we could get a critical mass of NY expats and nearby folks that travel into or through NY regularly and don’t wish to be made into felons, this might be a worthwhile thing to attach your name to…

I’d like one just so I can drive from PA to visit my brother in NH, without fear of being incarcerated for daring to traverse NY while armed.

 

[Acer-m14]

what about suing for just needing a fucking permit and training and paying in the fucking first place ..

i don't have pay or get trained on how to Vote ..

 

[Cooolone]

I believe this is not an issue... Wasn't there a case a while ago where a non-resident fought and won! Non-resident but had business here (not "A" business, just a reason to be here)... Pretty sure it would be a County issue. Same goes for those who've relocated and have a CCW. Do you list your out of state residence? Has this been an issue for anyone who then got revoked? Hmmmmm?

 

[VietnamEraVet]

I believe this is not an issue... Wasn't there a case a while ago where a non-resident fought and won! Non-resident but had business here (not "A" business, just a reason to be here)... Pretty sure it would be a County issue. Same goes for those who've relocated and have a CCW. Do you list your out of state residence? Has this been an issue for anyone who then got revoked? Hmmmmm?

NY has a court decision (Bartlett as I recall, and I believe it is linked at the NY page on Handgunlaw.us) that allows NYers who already have a permit, and move their domicile to another state (say FL as an example) to keep their permit. But if you leave and do not renew it, it will expire and you are SOL.

As a rule, some states (NY, CA, and others) absolutely WILL NOT issue CCW permits to non residents. That is what this pending lawsuit is looking to bust open,- and I would expect that if they were successful, that those BS rules would be struck down across the country. Hell, right now those who have NY permits from outside NYC cannot carry there. I believe they are looking to tear that shit down as part of this as well.

They are looking for suitable plaintiffs who live in bordering states (such as MA), who HAVE a CCW there, but not in NY, and would like to be able to carry in NY.

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to try and stop NY’s horsehit, and cram it up Whorecul’s ass. If members here know of people who fit the bill, hopefully they will learn of this and consider being a part of the effort.

Just trying to spread the word. Pass it on!

 

[SomeSoldier]

I believe this is not an issue... Wasn't there a case a while ago where a non-resident fought and won! Non-resident but had business here (not "A" business, just a reason to be here)... Pretty sure it would be a County issue. Same goes for those who've relocated and have a CCW. Do you list your out of state residence? Has this been an issue for anyone who then got revoked? Hmmmmm?

Still got mine.

 

[Steal2B]

As a rule, some states (NY, CA, and others) absolutely WILL NOT issue CCW permits to non residents

Not sure where this rule is from, but I know of people who are not NY residents who applied for and were granted CCW permits from upstate counties. In each case, however, they were not just random people but either were a previous long term resident, or worked in NYS, or had some property they paid tax on, or had family they routinely visited. I am not sure what the purple tie Gestapo will eventually do with these during the 3 year recertification bullshit or amendments on CCWs approved by a County Judge.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Not sure where this rule is from, but I know of people who are not NY residents who applied for and were granted CCW permits from upstate counties. In each case, however, they were not just random people but either were a previous long term resident, or worked in NYS, or had some property they paid tax on, or had family they routinely visited. I am not sure what the purple tie Gestapo will eventually do with these during the 3 year recertification bullshit or amendments on CCWs approved by a County Judge.

Here is the info you are referring to, noted in the NY state page (on Page 6) at Handgunlaw.us: https://handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf

And here is a copy of the (Osterweil v Bartlett) Court decision I was also noting: https://handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtRulingPartTimeResidentsCanGetGunPermits.pdf

 

[MothMan]

Not sure where this rule is from, but I know of people who are not NY residents who applied for and were granted CCW permits from upstate counties. In each case, however, they were not just random people but either were a previous long term resident, or worked in NYS, or had some property they paid tax on, or had family they routinely visited. I am not sure what the purple tie Gestapo will eventually do with these during the 3 year recertification bullshit or amendments on CCWs approved by a County Judge.

IIRC, a member here has a non-resident permit and it needs to be renewed annually.

 

[Steal2B]

Here is the info you are referring to, noted in the NY state page (on Page 6) at Handgunlaw.us: https://handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf

And here is a copy of the (Osterweil v Bartlett) Court decision I was also noting: https://handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtRulingPartTimeResidentsCanGetGunPermits.pdf

The handgunlaw citing does not reference a ban on NY non resident CCW permits, it states which NYS county would be the issuing authority (e.g. the county the non resident used to live, the county the non resident pays property tax, the county the non resident works or has a business, the county where the non resident's family resides, etc)

There was also still a reference to NYSP recertification being 5 years as opposed to FUKH's tirade to Bruen's 3 year.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

The handgunlaw citing does not reference a ban on NY non resident CCW permits, it states which NYS county would be the issuing authority (e.g. the county the non resident used to live, the county the non resident pays property tax, the county the non resident works or has a business, the county where the non resident's family resides, etc)

When I left in 2018, you could not apply for, or obtain an NY CCW permit as a non NY state resident. The only way to have one as a non NYS resident was to have had one PRIOR to moving out of NYS, and then you could keep it, as allowed by the Osterweil v Bartlett decision. I just reread the Handgunlaw.us posting, and it seems to be geared toward premises permits?

Now, did one or two people across NYS get their buddy in their local PPO to let them "keep" their permit? Maybe, who knows. But when I wanted to keep mine, I had to provide my county PPO with my NYS Non-Driver ID with my part time NYS address (you can have a NY Non Driver ID even though you are domiciled in another state), but legally, you are only supposed to have a D/L in the state you are legally domiciled in.

I still have my NYS CCW permit, which shows my NYS Non-Driver ID address, and my PPO file shows to send all correspondence to my domiciled address here in SC. And I have recertified / renewed my CCW permit online with the NYSP with no issues. I am pretty certain that there are a number of us on here that did the same thing.

I am 100% certain that if my girlfriend down here were to apply for a carry permit in NYS that she would be denied. Not to mention dealing with all of the other BS, - references and so on. If this upcoming lawsuit can strike that down, I am all for it.

All of that crap just needs to be struck down.

See this too:

 

[HIghlander]

When I left in 2018, you could not apply for, or obtain an NY CCW permit as a non NY state resident. The only way to have one as a non NYS resident was to have had one PRIOR to moving out of NYS, and then you could keep it, as allowed by the Osterweil v Bartlett decision. I just reread the Handgunlaw.us posting, and it seems to be geared toward premises permits?

Now, did one or two people across NYS get their buddy in their local PPO to let them "keep" their permit? Maybe, who knows. But when I wanted to keep mine, I had to provide my county PPO with my NYS Non-Driver ID with my part time NYS address (you can have a NY Non Driver ID even though you are domiciled in another state), but legally, you are only supposed to have a D/L in the state you are legally domiciled in.

I still have my NYS CCW permit, which shows my NYS Non-Driver ID address, and my PPO file shows to send all correspondence to my domiciled address here in SC. And I have recertified / renewed my CCW permit online with the NYSP with no issues. I am pretty certain that there are a number of us on here that did the same thing.

I am 100% certain that if my girlfriend down here were to apply for a carry permit in NYS that she would be denied. Not to mention dealing with all of the other BS, - references and so on. If this upcoming lawsuit can strike that down, I am all for it.

All of that crap just needs to be struck down.

See this too:

View attachment 218071

https://nygunforum.com/attachments/218071/

This doesn't link to site.

 

[Steal2B]

Now, did one or two people across NYS get their buddy in their local PPO to let them "keep" their permit?

I imagine it's more like thousands based on what I have heard over the years (from more than one Sheriff, a few issuing county judges, and some permit holders). It's obvious (and wrong) the thresholds, policies and circumstances vary from county to county but it is not unicorn rare to have new permits issued to non-residents. It's also wrong that the non-residents (that I am aware) had to have a substantial "need" in the issuing county such as property ownership, a job, a business, income property, a family obligation, a boat load of relatives, a family farm / camp, or a long term previous residence in order to earn a constitutional right.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

https://nygunforum.com/attachments/218071/

This doesn't link to site.

Works for me, but it is the image I included from Handgunlaw.us referring to various other states with regard to issuing to non residents.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

I imagine it's more like thousands based on what I have heard over the years (from more than one Sheriff, a few issuing county judges, and some permit holders). It's obvious (and wrong) the thresholds, policies and circumstances vary from county to county but it is not unicorn rare to have new permits issued to non-residents. It's also wrong that the non-residents (that I am aware) had to have a substantial "need" in the issuing county such as property ownership, a job, a business, income property, a family obligation, a boat load of relatives, a family farm / camp, or a long term previous residence in order to earn a constitutional right.

Like some much of this shit in NY, they prefer to keep things "fuzzy". So much of this shit is anything but clear cut, and what is allowed here is not allowed there, - or some of the time anyway. It is just crazy, and hard to keep up with and to abide by. But I think that is how New Yorkistan wants it. They want us to doubt ourselves and then abstain from exercising our rights. Overall, it just sucks.

So, if this upcoming lawsuit can strike a bunch of that shit down in NY, and possibly other states, I am all for it.

 

[Saltwater60]

I’m sure no one has standing to sue.

 

[OwnTheRide]

I’m sure no one has standing to sue.

And even if they did, they'd be unlikely to volunteer.

The sad truth is that NY gun owners are utterly apathetic. Our gun rights are constantly tossed to the side because we refuse to do anything about it. And I'm not even talking about the people "out there" - I'm talking about the people right here on this forum.

What was it, one month ago that I offered to throw in $50 for anyone who put in at least $5 to Jack Strickland's gofundme? Something like 5 people took me up on the offer (to be clear, Saltwater60 was one of them). Out of this entire forum, five people were willing to lift a finger.

Hell, two people spent a fair bit of time trying to convince others to not donate.

What the fuck, guys.

 

[Steal2B]

What was it, one month ago that I offered to throw in $50 for anyone who put in at least $5 to Jack Strickland's gofundme?

Wrong hill to die on. After a little confirmation (with some who knew him and had insights with what happened in Apalachin), I equated giving money to Jack Strickland in support of 2A as effective as giving money to Mark Kelly or John Hinkley. Others may have also checked before pulling out their credit card for a random self-destructive nutcase.

 

[OwnTheRide]

Wrong hill to die on. After a little confirmation (with some who knew him), I equated giving money to Jack Strickland in support of 2A as effective as giving money to Mark Kelly or John Hinkley. Others may have also checked before pulling out their credit card for a random self-destructive nutcase.

Five bucks, man. Five fucking bucks.

 

[Steal2B]

Five bucks, man. Five fucking bucks.

Five bucks to a creep who shot another creep he invited in to his house to party? He's lucky they dropped the case.

 

[OwnTheRide]

Five bucks to a creep who shot another creep he invited in to his house party?

Five bucks to a guy suing for his gun rights who is not a prohibited person and has not been convicted of a crime.

It's one thing if you don't want to contribute... fine, whatever. But when you then spend a fair bit of time trying to convince others to not contribute?

Bruh...

 

[Steal2B]

Five bucks to a guy suing for his gun rights who is not a prohibited person and has not been convicted of a crime.

It's one thing if you don't want to contribute... fine, whatever. But when you then spend a fair bit of time trying to convince others to not contribute?

Bruh...

Shit, I have given tens of thousands to 2A support groups, PACs, and 2A friendly candidates. I am a member of more than a couple 2A organizations. I submitted my name as a potential litigant against FUKH's tirade. I've gone face to face with friendly and adversarial Senators, Congressmen, a couple Sheriff, NYSP Commanders, the Federal Marshal for our district, Assemblymen, and Governors. Yeah, I'm on lists and some anti 2A politicians could at least recognize me. I grew up in Apalachin. I have donated to other 2A cases but I won't give my piss to Strickland.

 

[OwnTheRide]

Shit, I have given tens of thousands to 2A support groups, PACs, and 2A friendly candidates. I am a member of more than a couple 2A organizations. I submitted my name as a potential litigant against FUKH's tirade. I've gone face to face with friendly and adversarial Senators, Congressmen, a couple Sheriff, NYSP Commanders, the Federal Marshal for our district, Assemblymen, and Governors. Yeah, I'm on lists and some anti 2A politicians could at least recognize me. I grew up in Apalachin. I won't give my piss to Strickland.

And now you campaign against helping people who are trying to fight for our rights.

 

[Steal2B]

And now you campaign against helping people who are trying to fight for our rights.

Bullshit. Strickland could care less about our rights.

 

[OwnTheRide]

Aaaand this is why our gun rights have gone away in this state, folks.

 

[John Stark]

So the gist here is that non-residents are suing the NYS government for permission slips so they can carry a gun in NY?

Which entails asking a court for permission to let them proceed with their lawsuit and potentially rule (with a pretty please your "honor") that non-residents have a "right" to ask NY to beg for a permission slip?

WTF?

Double entendre completely intentional.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

So the gist here is that non-residents are suing the NYS government for permission slips so they can carry a gun in NY?

Which entails asking a court for permission to let them proceed with their lawsuit and potentially rule (with a pretty please your "honor") that non-residents have a "right" to ask NY to beg for a permission slip?

WTF?

Double entendre completely intentional.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up, and do things you don't want to do. I don't take the short view here that this is just people wanting to kiss NY's ass and begging for a permit. No, I see this as an opportunity for people to attack and hopefully strike down NY's Unconstitutional bullshit permit regimes. And hopefully a favorable court decision could also weaken or help dismantle this BS in other states.

Think about it this way: NY desperately wants to keep the number of legally carrying gun owners in NY to a minimum. I say Fuck them. This is an opportunity to try and strike down that shit. For the greater benefit of all licensed gun owners in NY. The more there are, the stronger we are against the anti's.

We should be cheering on any who are willing to take part in helping strike this shit down.

 

[John Stark]

Sometimes you just have to suck it up, and do things you don't want to do. I don't take the short view here that this is just people wanting to kiss NY's ass and begging for a permit. No, I see this as an opportunity for people to attack and hopefully strike down NY's Unconstitutional bullshit permit regimes.

The Supremes and other courts typically (and rightfully, as a matter of judicial principle) do not rule on questions that are not put before them.

If the plaintiffs ask a court to rule that they have the "right" to ask for a permission slip from NY to get a NY CWP, then THAT is the question that will be answered. Filing suit to have the privilege to get a permit will do NOTHING to strike down NY's permitting scheme. ZIP!

The specific question that plaintiffs (whether residents of NY or not) would ask if they wanted a snow ball's chance in Hell of exercising their RKBA in NY would be something along the lines of:

"Is it constitutional for any given state (NY in this case) to demand that American citizens must get permission from the government before they can, according to the history, text, and tradition of the US Constitution, Keep and Bear Arms?"

Under Heller, McDonald, and Bruen, the answer to that question is already very clear.

I absolutely DO NOT support the continued efforts of anyone who wants to keep the thoroughly unconstitutional permitting schemes going, for any reason at all. The law is settled at this point as per very strong, multiple rulings that have ALREADY dismantled most gun control in terms of the legal situation via precedent and "history, text, and tradition."

Courts are NOT going to strike NY's permiting schemes when plaintiffs are begging through the courts to continue participating in them! The courts do not work that way, and they SHOULD NOT ever do so.

Lawsuits like this are nothing but another failure in terms of getting our RKBA back on the sure footing where it belongs: no permission slips, no "poll taxes," no hoops to jump through.

In other words, NO MORE PRIOR RESTRAINT on fundamental, guaranteed, Constitutional Rights, just as the Founders intended.

Those plaintiffs ALREADY have a right to carry (Bear) in NY. They need to be suing on the correct basis, the violation of their civil and God-given rights that they already possess, and which the Stasi in NY is Infringing and stomping on.

Liberty does not depend on the equivalent of a fucking library card!

 

[VietnamEraVet]

The Supremes and other courts typically (and rightfully, as a matter of judicial principle) do not rule on questions that are not put before them.

If the plaintiffs ask a court to rule that they have the "right" to ask for a permission slip from NY to get a NY CWP, then THAT is the question that will be answered. Filing suit to have the privilege to get a permit will do NOTHING to strike down NY's permitting scheme. ZIP!

The specific question that plaintiffs (whether residents of NY or not) would ask if they wanted a snow ball's chance in Hell of exercising their RKBA in NY would be something along the lines of:

"Is it constitutional for any given state (NY in this case) to demand that American citizens must get permission from the government before they can, according to the history, text, and tradition of the US Constitution, Keep and Bear Arms?"

Under Heller, McDonald, and Bruen, the answer to that question is already very clear.

I absolutely DO NOT support the continued efforts of anyone who wants to keep the thoroughly unconstitutional permitting schemes going, for any reason at all. The law is settled at this point as per very strong, multiple rulings that have ALREADY dismantled most gun control in terms of the legal situation via precedent and "history, text, and tradition."

Courts are NOT going to strike NY's permiting schemes when plaintiffs are begging through the courts to continue participating in them! The courts do not work that way, and they SHOULD NOT ever do so.

Lawsuits like this are nothing but another failure in terms of getting our RKBA back on the sure footing where it belongs: no permission slips, no "poll taxes," no hoops to jump through.

In other words, NO MORE PRIOR RESTRAINT on fundamental, guaranteed, Constitutional Rights, just as the Founders intended.

Those plaintiffs ALREADY have a right to carry (Bear) in NY. They need to be suing on the correct basis, the violation of their civil and God-given rights that they already possess, and which the Stasi in NY is Infringing and stomping on.

Liberty does not depend on the equivalent of a fucking library card!

John,

I am not looking to keep NY's Unconstitutional permitting scheme in place. I want to blow it up,- however it gets done. Bit by bit, or all at once. I guess we will have to see if something emerges. But I see this as a possible way to attack carry permit requirements and open up our ability to carry across every state line without having to beg for a permit in every state that wants to force us to do that, or not be able to carry there.

When it comes to the end goal here John, you and I want the same thing. To tear that shit down.

 

[John Stark]

John,

I am not looking to keep NY's Unconstitutional permitting scheme in place. I want to blow it up,- however it gets done. Bit by bit, or all at once. I guess we will have to see if something emerges. But I see this as a possible way to attack carry permit requirements and open up our ability to carry across every state line without having to beg for a permit in every state that wants to force us to do that, or not be able to carry there.

When it comes to the end goal here John, you and I want the same thing. To tear that shit down.

You are not addressing the points I made at all.

How can a suit by plaintiffs asking a court to force NY to allow them to apply for a CWP as non-residents "blow up" NY's permiting scheme, when they plaintiffs are NOT asking the court to strike down the scheme in the first place, and are expressing their desire to willingly participate in that permitting scheme?

Plaintiff: "Your honor, we would like to be able to ask NY for permission through their permitting scheme to conceal carry when we are in NY."

Judge Option 1: "It is my opinion that you have the "right" to ask NY for permission to carry there."

Judge Option 2: "It is my opinion that you DO NOT have the "right" to ask NY for permission to carry there."

Judge Option 3: "It is my opinion that the NYS permitting scheme is unconstitutional and unlawful, even though you didn't ask me to rule on that."

Option 3 almost certainly will NOT happen. That is not how the courts work, period end of story.

The way to go after permitting schemes is to petition a court on those grounds. That is how courts of law work.

It is feckless to petition a court on certain grounds, expecting that the judge or judges to rule on something they are not being asked to rule on.

When a judge (rarely) goes beyond the grounds brought by the petitioner, ruling on questions that are not pertinent to the actual facts in the lawsuit, it greatly increases the risk that the judge's decision will be overturned on appeal by the State.

Furthermore, if a plaintiff asks the court to address their desire to ask for permission to carry NY, but then tries to turn the case into an attack on permitting schemes, the judge could, and probably should, consider the plaintiffs of acting in bad faith, and rule against their petition without even bothering to considering the merits of their case at all. The judge could call the suit frivolous and rule against the plaintiffs with prejudice. Not a good place to be in any lawsuit.

Striking down permits to Keep and Bear is only going to be accomplished by actually, you know, submitting a petition to that effect.

The courts work in a certain way. Its not unheard of for a judge to help a plaintiff to clarify exactly what they are seeking in court, but they are almost never going to allow plaintiffs to change the fundamental nature of their complain to rule on things the plaintiffs did not ask for in their original petition.

Finally, as a point of clarity and order, it ought to be noted that the only successful SCOTUS rulings achieved so far (Heller, McDonald, and Bruen) with regards to the 2A have done nothing but actually uphold permitting schemes, with nary a hint from the Supremes that they have any interested in overturning those schemes.

In part that might be because Scalia in Heller essentially upheld the power of states to requiring licensing for concealed carry; however, the bare and obvious fact that NO 2A organization or lawsuit has even bothered to ask the Court whether permitting schemes are lawful in the first place might be an indicator that plaintiffs are not asking the Court the right questions in the first place.

When you say, "I want to blow it (NY's permitting scheme) up,- however it gets done...." I can only respond to you with facts and principle: the way it gets done is by ACTUALLY going after the permitting scheme, and not dancing around the subject.

Petititioners who ask a court to decide whether NY government has an obligation to give non-residents the opportunity to ask permission to Keep and Bear when in NY are going to get a ruling on the petition they make, not on some other matter.

That is the reality of filing lawsuits, and winning does not come about by placing our hopes on hopium and pie in the sky "however it gets done." Results in courts happen when plaintifss follow the rules and are clear and concise in their pleadings.

So let me be perfectly clear on this: this suit will NOT get rid of any permitting schemes, in NY or otherwise. Given the parameters of the suit as it was presented, it CAN NOT.