Possible new AR for hunting... caliber?

[1075tech]

Now there's an offer

ETA: The Grendel will have less recoil than the .308 - It reminds me of a 30-30 or a 7.62x39

I'd say less than half the felt recoil of 308. Of course, my 308 is an 18" bolt action with no recoil pad. All my MSRs have adjustable gas and my 20" bolt gun has a heavy barrel profile in a B&C M40 stock with a 1" Pachmyer pad.

The Grendel and x39 share the same parent case lineage.

 

[Vinson57]

I got both 6.8 SPC and 450 BM and both work well on NY Deer and hit this year. I was going to go retro with a 99, 141 or 81 or 94 (guess) but for all the shit complaining about ARs, went out with them instead as I could and did.

 

[1075tech]

Bullet selection for the 6.5 is good enough for paper but not as great for hunting.

With 100 or more 6.5mm projectiles, including lead free, that can be used in the Grendel if you reload(admittedly some more useful than others) and more than a dozen factory loadings from Hornady, PPU, Wolf, Federal, and Remington (2020) as well as custom or small production loads, I'm certain you can find something useful for hunting as well as precision target shooting.

If you are just looking for trigger time and not worried about sub-MOA performance, you can't get cheaper than the Wolf 100gr FMJ.

I will respectfully disagree with meke on the bolt. The .125 bolt face of the x39 is too weak for the Grendel. This is why Bill Alexander went with the .136 that is the standard for Grendel. Early on, there were more than a few reports of bolt failures. Now you seldom hear of one. I should specify that the main issue with the.125 vs .136 has to do with the extractor, rather than the bolt itself.

 

[meketrefe]

With 100 or more 6.5mm projectiles, including lead free, that can be used in the Grendel if you reload(admittedly some more useful than others) and more than a dozen factory loadings from Hornady, PPU, Wolf, Federal, and Remington (2020) as well as custom or small production loads, I'm certain you can find something useful for hunting as well as precision target shooting.

If you are just looking for trigger time and not worried about sub-MOA performance, you can't get cheaper than the Wolf 100gr FMJ.

I will respectfully disagree with meke on the bolt. The .125 bolt face of the x39 is too weak for the Grendel. This is why Bill Alexander went with the .136 that is the standard for Grendel. Early on, there were more than a few reports of bolt failures. Now you seldom hear of one. I should specify that the main issue with the.125 vs .136 has to do with the extractor, rather than the bolt itself.

Hi.
We are talking about the x39 bolts from ARP and young manufacturing here.
The shallower the face the larger the base for the lugs plus young and ARP have increased the radius. They have actually measures the tensile strength and HP tested these to demonstrate the improvements. I have used both and never broke the G but I have not shot that one as much as others who broke them many times.
If you go to ARP you actually have G bolts that are stronger than AAs firts, second and 3rd gen. They also use armslite extractors just like LWRC, Wilson and Bison and they are the logical replacement and goto place for many Grendel shooters. They also sell tons of the LBC ones that is a better chamber for the grendel.
Order some, test them with multiple cats ad calibers, and you can learn about this in the arp and hunting forums or in of these ny forums too.
Our personal opinions mean little if we just concentrate on the engeneering around this and the facts.
Bill Alexander is a.great.guy. I was.one of the first buyers and testers.of the G and excnaged load info with him. But make no mistake he is there to sell his stuff so if you only go to him or the grendel forums you are not going to get an objective disection of the evolution of this cartrige and parts.
I am happy to discuss and show the projects we did with the "superbolts" even if that means looking for old threads and pics already gone from the photofucket.
And also willing to learn more from others of course...
Merry Christmas

 

[ManrisFrack]

So refresh my memory... .125" vs .136" - that's the depth of the recess that the case head sits in? If that's is the case, shallower should be stronger.

I think the main strength of ARP's design is the radii at the root of the lugs (cross sectional view, cut perpendicular to bore axis), correct?

 

[subsonic]

If I had to rank the calibers/options within a total of 100%, 7.62x39 owns 50% of the share. It's just that I read so much about it's downsides against deer that I am considering something a little more "guaranteed" to click off the necessary checkboxes.

What are all these downsides you are reading about? Presuming your barrel is actually .308 rated and you are shooting .308 hunting ammo.

 

[Airborneguy]

My barrel is .311. I’ve loaded .308 heads before and not noticed much of a difference though. I just read so much about x39 being an “anemic” round for deer.

Anyway, I did make a decision. Ordered a matched set of AR-10 receivers from Live Free Armory. I’m going to build the lightest 16” AR-10 possible without using a polymer lower.

 

[Twogunwilly]

I've seen deer shot with the x39, it does a fine job at medium ranges. Never seen one shot further than 100 yds tho.

 

[subsonic]

My barrel is .311. I’ve loaded .308 heads before and not noticed much of a difference though. I just read so much about x39 being an “anemic” round for deer.

Anyway, I did make a decision. Ordered a matched set of AR-10 receivers from Live Free Armory. I’m going to build the lightest 16” AR-10 possible without using a polymer lower.

Derp. I was thinking 7.62x51 NATO rather than x39. Yeah that would be much iffier. Just built my first AR-10 in .308 and am looking forward to taking it on a hunt next year.

 

[meketrefe]

Co

So refresh my memory... .125" vs .136" - that's the depth of the recess that the case head sits in? If that's is the case, shallower should be stronger.

I think the main strength of ARP's design is the radii at the root of the lugs (cross sectional view, cut perpendicular to bore axis), correct?

Correct but 4 factors combined contribute to the stronger bolts. Smaller Recess, larger radius (both give larger contact area), steel is ARC variant, and proper heat tresting.
Arp were pioneers but Young has been producing great strong bolts too.
I know they are strong because we have used then in all sort of projects and tested them with some crazy loads.
The gunner for example produces more than double the thrust of the hottest x39 equivalent to a 180gr 308 winchester and we have to yet see a broken bolt.
This is consistent with their small business type of tests that while not too ellabored they are equally valid. Wildcatters have also conirmed this.
And when other manufactures say they mp and hp their bolts they are full of shit.
Only 3 companies do AR hp testing and proof mark who are fn, colt and h&k. Sig possibly too.
The rest use oem and whatever and rely on the mill's processes and that they know what they do even for regular bolts.
Remember the fiasco with midways stoner bolts that they had to recall hundreds of them due to the OEM that made them for their barnd at the time? Basically they screwed up the heat treating and midway found out from customers. And that being midway thry took care of the problem right away but junk is everywhere with retailers like model1, psa, surplusparts, etc...
Young is one of the good ones and makes oem for the recognized brands like fulton, jp, wilson, etc.... or at least they used to.
I sourced from the best and then armslite carriers and extractors as well.
This changes every year with demand and branding, but old good oems continue to be good.
I stock up with good stuff parts and I am good for life so dont have to worry about what the market does.
Good parts last and might not need much so they are cheaper in the long run.

 

[Airborneguy]

This is what I bought so far:

Welcome To Live Free Armory In West Melbourne, FL

Live Free Armory is your one-stop-shop for all of your firearm and machining needs. From customized parts to laser engraving to deburring and finishing, we do it all. Located in West Melbourne, FL, we serve the international firearm markets, the United States and Canada.

www.livefreearmory.com

Got it in burnt bronze.

Leaning towards a Stoner barrel and BCG from Midway next.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you are comfortable with a .308 at 350 yards, you should be comfortable a 7.62x39 at 100 yards. The bullet will be going at the same velocity.

 

[ManrisFrack]

I think the Faxon pencil is one of the lightest 308 AR barrels out there.

You might want to look at a titanium carrier as well. I've heard jlbillet sells a decent one and I'm pretty sure VSeven has one too.

You want a light AR308, barrel and carrier are two great places to cut weight... although you can build a lighter 6.8 way cheaper than a "lightweight" 308.

 

[Airborneguy]

I know, but I ultimately decided to stick with .308 since I’ve been reloading for it already for a few years.

 

[meketrefe]

This is what I bought so far:

Welcome To Live Free Armory In West Melbourne, FL

Live Free Armory is your one-stop-shop for all of your firearm and machining needs. From customized parts to laser engraving to deburring and finishing, we do it all. Located in West Melbourne, FL, we serve the international firearm markets, the United States and Canada.

www.livefreearmory.com

Got it in burnt bronze.

Leaning towards a Stoner barrel and BCG from Midway next.

They are mostly douglas. They are not bad but skip theor bolts. What I would do is to get them sourced from places that have both barrels and bolts headspaced to the tightest tolerances and/or guaranteed to work best tohether. Look into the ARP combos and might want to get a spare stripped bolt.

 

[meketrefe]

IMO 308 pencil barrels can be problemstic. They cannot be stress relieved and through the heat / cooling cycle they might shoot like crap and they might even warp with some abuse.
I think a good compromise might be a mid weitht barrel all the way to the port and then a .3/4 and then 5/8 step reduction.
The key is that one leaves at least a 3 inch long somewhat wide extention after the chambers throat, even if it is with shallow flutes and a nice 3/4 ahead of the block that are areas with a lot of heat that can be easily compromised.
The weitht difference is not that much and the barrel is lighter than a 5.56 barrel of the aame profile since the 30 cal bore is larger.

Even a 5.56 M4 type profile is hardly the ideal ahead of the gas block and carbine porting is a huge mistake too.
This configuration have shown that the barrel might give up even before a steel gas block or tube do.
A pencil might be ok for little slow shooting and if one does not plan to use a gun in a defensive role that miht never happen but automoaders with fast magazines systems tend tobbe the preferred choice for this and when used as intended they heat up fast.

 

[Airborneguy]

They are mostly douglas. They are not bad but skip theor bolts. What I would do is to get them sourced from places that have both barrels and bolts headspaced to the tightest tolerances and/or guaranteed to work best tohether. Look into the ARP combos and might want to get a spare stripped bolt.

What do you think of Stoner barrel/bolt combos? Midway has them at a decent price right now on sale. The whole bolt carrier.

Also, would you rather SBR (12.5”) or suppress a .308? Could you explain both to me for this caliber please when you get a chance.

 

[meketrefe]

The 308 is less complicated. They do not make anyrhing so the stoner might be the same as 12 other brands. Barrels are.douglas that are fine for the price. The nice thing about midway is that if anything goes wrong they fix it right away, no questions asked.
As far as 12" barrels on high power bottleneck rifle cartriges is pretty absurd and in the case of the 308 a considerable waste with the corresponding noise and concussion.
Anything 16" or shorter might be better off with a more cost effective caliber and less powder.
What do you want to do with the firearm and caliber?
IMO Specialized ayatems should be purposed built perhaps atarting with the bullet selection, speed needed uppon impact and then ponder casing and the firearm and chambering might be the last thing.
Afterall everything starts and ends with a bullet. The rest is the delivery man.

 

[Airborneguy]

Deer hunting. Light and maneuverable but powerful enough not to have to worry about wounding.

 

[meketrefe]

Deer hunting. Light and maneuverable but powerful enough not to have to worry about wounding.

Many calibers and firearms are considered appropriate for deer hunting. Many of those are light and handy carbines and the 308 is one of the most popular choices on the planet, but not on a 12" barrel / pistol for obvious reasons.
Can it be done? Sure, but you end up with a pretty self restricted choice and lots of noise and fireworks.
Even at 16" I suggest folks consider the 7.62x39 or the 6.8 that will be more efficient and enjoyable and lighter by design.
Many x39 can be ordered to reload with 308 bullets and quality brass and will mske more sense if one wants something shorter than 16" although 16" is pretty compact a rifle porting can be done and there are also bullpup soutions in other autoloader platforms. Also thr 6.8 is pretty good with short barrels and 85-95gr loads.
But if one wants to go the pistol why not introduce grain and bore in exchange for speed (that is lost anyway) and go with a powerful pistol caliber?
Nothing beats killing power and if the range is limited consider heavy bullets that make big holes and are fast killers even with large male deer trophy?
458.socom and 450 bushmaster are easy choices.
Even a 10mm pistol with premium bullets and hot ammo will be as simple as cake.
I dont like the legend but even that will be so much more appropriate and civil to shoot and you can always order a 35 AR reamed that is compatible with thr legend but in a much better bore size that will allow you to use other 357 and 358 bullets that are perfect for deer.
And I understand the many asvantages of having a service and plentiful cartrige lime the 308 but not for a crazy 12" pistol.
I hope this helps.

 

[Airborneguy]

Ordered a bunch of parts from Right to Bear last night. If anyone is looking for AR parts, they are having a sick sale.

I grabbed the Faxon pencil barrel, 16”, for $189. Everywhere else it was around $250. Also a BCG, a RRA Varmint trigger (I have one already and like it) and the gas block and tube.

Maybe I should start a new build thread now that it’s all decided. Lol. I have a Magpul MOE stock set and a Magpul butt pad on the way as well. I’m about $800 in so far. Already picked out the handguard as well. I just have to decide on a brake/suppressor and LPK/grip.

I am considering a suppressor for this one.

 

[Airborneguy]

@meketrefe, I have a 16” 7.62x39 already based on the PSA KS-47 platform. I built it when they actually sold the lowers and uppers stripped by cannibalizing a 7.62x39 AR I had built earlier with a Stoner barrel.

I have had success with that rifle on pigs and deer (and my cousin shot a ram with it when his muzzleloader failed to fire). I just wanted something “more”. Plus with the AR-10 already around and not feeling like it fit me right, but already liking .308, I decided to stick with it.

Tomorrow I am selling my current AR-10. That leaves me with the decision of whether or not to sell an unused AR and possibly a .30-06 as well. I’ve always been weird about getting rid of guns that I rarely use. Might unload all 3 to fund a suppressor and glass.

 

[dsdmmat]

@meketrefe, I have a 16” 7.62x39 already based on the PSA KS-47 platform. I built it when they actually sold the lowers and uppers stripped by cannibalizing a 7.62x39 AR I had built earlier with a Stoner barrel.

I have had success with that rifle on pigs and deer (and my cousin shot a ram with it when his muzzleloader failed to fire). I just wanted something “more”. Plus with the AR-10 already around and not feeling like it fit me right, but already liking .308, I decided to stick with it.

Tomorrow I am selling my current AR-10. That leaves me with the decision of whether or not to sell an unused AR and possibly a .30-06 as well. I’ve always been weird about getting rid of guns that I rarely use. Might unload all 3 to fund a suppressor and glass.

I don’t like to sell guns, especially to fund other guns.

 

[Airborneguy]

I don’t like to sell guns, especially to fund other guns.

If it wasn’t for limited space, I would never sell a gun until my dying breath. Look where I live though. I have a small gun locker and a bench for reloading shoved in a corner of my attic. Until I can retire and move, I’m about maxed out.

 

[meketrefe]

It makes sense to sell guns and calibers you dont use and get the ones you use and unless they are collection guns and one is loosing big money in the process.
Having calibers one likes and lots of ammo makes more sense than too many guns and/or didferent chambers and no ammo, time, or funds to shoot them.
It is like having 30 cars and no gas and insurance money for them. ...pretty absurd unless one has a car museum or they are unique collection pieces.
You might think a 12" 308 is cool but eventually you will hate it like 99% of the folks who go that route and after a short to moderate enfatuation period. Maybe you are that 1% who are ok with those choices but in good faith we try to advice against them based on what we have learned over the years and it has been discussed many times.
But if you goota scratch that itch go ahead just remember these things.
If you must have a handy 308 get at least a 16"-17" carbine with a mid or ideally rifle porting and make it light but not too light so you can live with it and even enjoy it when shooting.
It is not much of a personal opinion but a real logical thing in all honesty and good faith.

 

[Airborneguy]

I bought the 16” barrel. I posted above.

 

[meketrefe]

I bought the 16” barrel. I posted above.

Great. Sorry I missed the post.

 

[Airborneguy]

Am I correct that an AR-15 tubular free float can be used on an AR-10? I am considering this one:

Nordic Components Slotted AR-15 Customizable Handguard 9.188 Black

The Nordic Components slotted free float tube is a fully customizable aluminum handguard for AR-15 rifles. Rail sections can be attached at 12, 3, 6,...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[ManrisFrack]

Am I correct that an AR-15 tubular free float can be used on an AR-10? I am considering this one:

Nordic Components Slotted AR-15 Customizable Handguard 9.188 Black

The Nordic Components slotted free float tube is a fully customizable aluminum handguard for AR-15 rifles. Rail sections can be attached at 12, 3, 6,...

www.midwayusa.com

Negative. Only the DPMS Gen 2 can use some AR-15 free floats. It's all about the barrel nut really, but just look for DPMS 308 or AR-10 compatibility listed in the description or from the manufacturer somewhere.

There are also two different rail heights. Google it, find out what your receiver is and buy a free float to match if you care about such things. Welcome to large platform ARs. They aren't as fool-proof to build as their little brothers.

 

[Airborneguy]

Got my barrel. This Faxon pencil is THIN and LIGHT. Like no heavier than a .223 thin profile. I should be picking up the receiver set Friday. Handguard on the way. Only a grip and muzzle brake left to order.