Problem Renewing my NY permit

[zorro]

There ya go. Just get it out of that cabin, since I assume the cabin is in your name

Yep - cabin is in my name

If I give it to my son, and provide a written "letter confirming the fact" i assume he can keep it at the cabin - or would that be an issue as he owns it and leave sit in a cabin that is not in his name..................probably an issue thinking about it

 

[Keyzard]

It 100% has an address - evidenced by the taxes i pay each year!!

I dont have a NYS drivers license which is one of the reasons I believe I am classed as an out of state permit holder

Neither do we. We have PA DLs. It's worth a shot.

 

[zorro]

Neither do we. We have PA DLs. It's worth a shot.

The issue is my cabin is in Oneida County - the area of the Adirondacks (I actually think it is slightly outside of the Adirondacks) falls into Oneida county

So cabin and permit are both Oneida County

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

Yep - cabin is in my name

If I give it to my son, and provide a written "letter confirming the fact" i assume he can keep it at the cabin - or would that be an issue as he owns it and leave sit in a cabin that is not in his name..................probably an issue thinking about it

Ha! State Police will take the gun if they put two and two together and go to your cabin, and YOU or your son will have to straighten it out later, is what I'd put odds on.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Clearly, Oneida County is out of control. First, you need to look up the Barrett decision. You can find a link to it on the NY page on handgunlaw.us. You have the legal right to keep your NYS CCW permit if you move your primary domicile out of NYS.

Since Oneida are being completely unlawful asswipes, first order of business is to move your permit to a different county. One solution is to buy a nominal piece of property in a different county. Like an undeveloped lot that you can park an RV at when you come back to NY to visit. You may be able to pick something up for a few thousand dollars or much less. Next, go to the NY DMV, and get a NY non driver ID using that address. You will likely have to prove ownership with the DMV as you will not have a utility bill or other documents. See the NY DMV website for requirements to obtain the non-driver ID.

With your non driver ID in hand, go to the PPO in your new county. Be prepared to show them the details of the Barrett decision. Tell them you want to keep your permit. They should use your NY non driver ID as the address of your NY CCW permit, and then note their internal records to send all correspondence to your out of NY state address.

Then, go online and recertify your permit on the NYS State Police website. The site will require you to enter your NYS DMV ID number, and update your permit info with your actual physical out of NYS address, and your mailing address,- likely the same as your out of NYS address.

That will successfully recertify your permit for 3 years. And Oneida County can go suck a bag of dicks. PM me if you have questions.

 

[Keyzard]

Next, go to the NY DMV, and get a NY non driver ID using that address. You will likely have to prove ownership with the DMV.

Not to muddy the waters, but this was the path we originally took with Erie County. When the DMV was processing my application, they informed me that it would invalidate my PA DL. I'm not sure if this was incorrect or a new development, but the supervisor even called Albany and they confirmed her statement.

 

[Parzival]

That's crazy, Oneida has gone off the deep end.

When I moved...I filled out an amendment form. The office put my MT address on my permit and handed me the new permit. They said they were jealous that I was moving but if I needed to add or remove a gun to mail it in.

I do not own any property in NY, they didn't even ask.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Not to muddy the waters, but this was the path we originally took with Erie County. When the DMV was processing my application, they informed me that it would invalidate my PA DL. I'm not sure if this was incorrect or a new development, but the supervisor even called Albany and they confirmed her statement.

Don’t get me started on the EC PPO. I have a NY CCW in Erie County, with a NY non driver ID with my Erie County address. I went to the DMV with the required documents and they issued it to me. I have a SC Real ID drivers license. I submitted a letter to the EC PPO stating that I wanted to keep my NY CCW as permitted by the Barrett decision, and included copies of my NY non driver ID, and my SC drivers license, and directing that all correspondence to be sent to my SC address where I am legally domiciled. Done.

Sounds like you were applying for a NY drivers license? if you were, yes, that would invalidate a drivers license in a different state. But a NY non DL does NOT affect a drivers license Issued in another state (your new domiciled state).

 

[zorro]

I am not in a position to purchase additional land and and RV to put on it - just not possible

I have a FL DL and not a NY DL

I did have a NY DL until I moved to FL

Are you saying that Erie County are more gun friendly and that I could potentially transfer my NY permit there - or would I need an Eerie property/residence there as well?

 

[thughes]

For that to apply, it would have to be revoked under paragraph (a) or (b) of that subdivision. A made up, impossible to comply with yearly certification is not one of the reasons for revocation in (a) or (b). In any case, if OP's guns aren't in NY, it's not a concern.

Just my opinion though. I've been wrong before.

11. License: revocation and suspension. (a) The conviction of a
licensee anywhere of a felony or serious offense or a licensee at any
time becoming ineligible to obtain a license, including engaging in
conduct that would have resulted in the denial of a license, under this
section shall operate as or be grounds for, a revocation of the license.
A license may be revoked or suspended as provided for in section 530.14
of the criminal procedure law or section eight hundred forty-two-a of
the family court act. Except for a license issued pursuant to section
400.01 of this article, a license may be revoked and cancelled at any
time in the city of New York, and in the counties of Nassau and Suffolk,
by the licensing officer, and elsewhere than in the city of New York by
any judge or justice of a court of record; a license issued pursuant to
section 400.01 of this article may be revoked and cancelled at any time
by the licensing officer or any judge or justice of a court of record. A
license to engage in the business of dealer may be revoked or suspended
for any violation of the provisions of article thirty-nine-BB of the
general business law. The official revoking a license shall give written
notice thereof without unnecessary delay to the executive department,
division of state police, Albany, and shall also notify immediately the
duly constituted police authorities of the locality. The licensing
officer shall revoke any license issued in which an applicant knowingly
made a material false statement on the application. Notice of a
revocation under this subdivision shall be issued in writing and shall
include the basis for the determination, which shall be supported by a
preponderance of the evidence. Such notice shall also include
information regarding the ability to appeal such decision in accordance
with subdivision four-a of this section.

(b) Whenever the director of community services or his or her designee
makes a report pursuant to section 9.46 of the mental hygiene law, the
division of criminal justice services shall convey such information,
whenever it determines that the person named in the report possesses a
license issued pursuant to this section, to the appropriate licensing
official, who shall issue an order suspending or revoking such license.

Paragraph a) seems pretty much carte blanche to me: I interpret as a CCW (not issued to retired law enforcement) can be revoked or cancelled at any time, anywhere in the state, by any judge or justice. Of course IANAL.....probably should get some legal interpretation of this at some point. Not worth arguing about for me because I don't have a dog in this fight, I just seem to remember that the condition for surrendering ALL guns upon ccw revocation was a major WTF when the SAFE Act was passed.

".....Except for a license issued pursuant to section
400.01 of this article, a license may be revoked and cancelled at any
time in the city of New York, and in the counties of Nassau and Suffolk,
by the licensing officer, and elsewhere than in the city of New York by
any judge or justice of a court of record; a license issued pursuant to
section 400.01 of this article may be revoked and cancelled at any time
by the licensing officer or any judge or justice of a court of record.

(section 400.01 is "License to carry and possess firearms for retired sworn members of the division of state police"....imagine that)

 

[Acer-m14]

no license was needed in 1791

 

[FP1201]

You don't need a permit for it, but as already stated, once you lose your pistol permit, they can take all your long guns in NY.

That's how the Safe Act is written. If you lose your permit for any reason, or no reason at all (because it doesn't specify) they can take your long guns.

Surrendering a handgun licenses IS NOT a reason to invoke the safe act chapters, having it revoked or suspended for criminal or mental health issues IS.
The only Licensing requirement outside of NYC for a Gun in NY is for handguns, which you have a Licenses for, and if you really want to get technical you are supposed to change the address listed on that Licenses within xx days of moving, same with your drivers licenses, If you do not live in Onieda County, do not have property there, then you do not have necessity to have that Licenses there, yes I get it that you don't want to surrender it and would like to carry a handgun to your Cabin, so you're going to have to do some leg work by contacting the county that property is in, go into the GIS system (look for "Tax Maps in Xxxxx County NY) to find it and get the parcel numbers and 9-1-1 address, if there isn't one, then get one made, it's not that big a deal. The Recertification of your Handgun Licenses is done through the NYSP and THEIR web site, fuck the County and their made up administrative rules, and if it gets down to it, call and request a phone conference with the administrative Judge that signs off on them and not the Clerk's that think they've got rule over you.

 

[FP1201]

The issue is my cabin is in Oneida County - the area of the Adirondacks (I actually think it is slightly outside of the Adirondacks) falls into Oneida county

So cabin and permit are both Oneida County

OK, didn't realize that the cabin was there, it's not exactly what we think of as "The Adirondacks".

Renew the Licenses in accordance with the CCIA via the NYSP web site:

Pistol Permit Recertification

gunsafety.ny.gov

Hire a Lawyer, who'll tell the County to fuck off.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Too bad you don't loot or cause mayhem. All would be good with your situation if you did.

Man, the shit they put law abiding gun owners through compared to criminals...

 

[zorro]

Surrendering a handgun licenses IS NOT a reason to invoke the safe act chapters, having it revoked or suspended for criminal or mental health issues IS.
The only Licensing requirement outside of NYC for a Gun in NY is for handguns, which you have a Licenses for, and if you really want to get technical you are supposed to change the address listed on that Licenses within xx days of moving, same with your drivers licenses, If you do not live in Onieda County, do not have property there, then you do not have necessity to have that Licenses there, yes I get it that you don't want to surrender it and would like to carry a handgun to your Cabin, so you're going to have to do some leg work by contacting the county that property is in, go into the GIS system (look for "Tax Maps in Xxxxx County NY) to find it and get the parcel numbers and 9-1-1 address, if there isn't one, then get one made, it's not that big a deal. The Recertification of your Handgun Licenses is done through the NYSP and THEIR web site, fuck the County and their made up administrative rules, and if it gets down to it, call and request a phone conference with the administrative Judge that signs off on them and not the Clerk's that think they've got rule over you.

Thanks for the info

My permit is held in Oneida county, the same county that my cabin is situated (I may have said Adirondacks, which is incorrect - i meant Oneida county, near the Adirondacks - my mistake)

My DL is for Florida - I do not have a NYS DL

To recertify on the NYSP site, it looks as though I need a NYS DL - it was asking for that yesterday when i tried

In terms of my license, I am guessing they will not revoke or suspend it - I am guessing they will argue that as I did not comply with their rules (their ridiculous form), that I simply did not renew it - in an attempt to get out of any litigation on my part

 

[zorro]

OK, didn't realize that the cabin was there, it's not exactly what we think of as "The Adirondacks".

Renew the Licenses in accordance with the CCIA via the NYSP web site:

Pistol Permit Recertification

gunsafety.ny.gov

Hire a Lawyer, who'll tell the County to fuck off.

Sorry - yeah, my fault - we are in Oneida County with the Cabin and my permit

 

[Cooolone]

Do we have anything other than anecdotal "They'll Revoke Your License"??? Actual case law where it's happened and survived court scrutiny! Because it's up to the issuing authority to provide the CCW but I believe can only be removed by a Judge! And if so, there's be case law on it. My question then "is there" any? Otherwise this is all another Big Bad Wolf that never comes...

Forgive my ignorance of Erie County and this bullshit I'm reading! Again, a county doesn't exist Ina bubble but must conform and comply with State Law as we all do.

Regards

 

[Zerex]

No valid NYS address, or drivers license, except on the Oneida County PP. You are an out of State resident, but a NYS PP holder, with Fla DL AND RESIDENCY, FOR TAX PURPOSES, ETC.

NYS Renewal/recerts require real current legal address.

You CAN have a NYS PP, as an out of state resident, LIKE your non resident NYS HUNTING LICENSE, but that recert form is based upon NYS rules.

It obviously requires a FLA LE office to do a NICS Check....MAKE A DONATION TO THE LOCAL FLA PBA---$500 OUTTA DO IT. You save more$$$ than that living in Fla.

If your real address was the NYS cabin address, and you had a NYS Enhanced DL, no problemlo.

A cabin in the woods, gets property tax bills sent to the ACTUAL mailbox address...but you arranged for tax bills to get sent to Florida. No physical box? WHY?

OK

You could have an address for that Cabin in NYS, and a physical mailbox, and have all the mail forwarded to FLA. MILLIONS OF SNOWBIRDS DO.

SECOND............Is you Cabin in Oneida County or another NYS County?

If the cabin was in Herkimer County, Lewis county, or Hamilton County, etc I can see fewer problems, but your NYS PPA address is Oneida County....because you lived in Oneida County.

You could have changed your PP address to the Cabin County, and had the mail forwarded to Oneida County while you still lived in NYS............and then forwareded to FLA when you moved there......... Too late for that.



Just get the form filled out..no more alternatives.
Can't be a resident of both states or cheat the system.

 

[zorro]

No valid NYS address, or drivers license, except on the Oneida County PP. You are an out of State resident, but a NYS PP holder, with Fla DL AND RESIDENCY, FOR TAX PURPOSES, ETC.

NYS Renewal/recerts require real current legal address.

You CAN have a NYS PP, as an out of state resident, LIKE your non resident NYS HUNTING LICENSE, but that recert form is based upon NYS rules.

It obviously requires a FLA LE office to do a NICS Check....MAKE A DONATION TO THE LOCAL FLA PBA---$500 OUTTA DO IT. You save more$$$ than that living in Fla.

If your real address was the NYS cabin address, and you had a NYS Enhanced DL, no problemlo.

A cabin in the woods, gets property tax bills sent to the ACTUAL mailbox address...but you arranged for tax bills to get sent to Florida. No physical box? WHY?

OK

You could have an address for that Cabin in NYS, and a physical mailbox, and have all the mail forwarded to FLA. MILLIONS OF SNOWBIRDS DO.

SECOND............Is you Cabin in Oneida County or another NYS County?

If the cabin was in Herkimer County, Lewis county, or Hamilton County, etc I can see fewer problems, but your NYS PPA address is Oneida County....because you lived in Oneida County.

You could have changed your PP address to the Cabin County, and had the mail forwarded to Oneida County while you still lived in NYS............and then forwareded to FLA when you moved there......... Too late for that.



Just get the form filled out..no more alternatives.
Can't be a resident of both states or cheat the system.

I have the FL background check fully completed, but 3 different departments refused to sign the form provided by Oneida county - it was not their form and they simply do not recognize or accept the Oneida fomr

No idea where you get the idea that I am trying to cheat the system - where in any of the emails did I say that?

I have permits for CT, FL and NYS (with all the reciprocity that provides) - I have a property in 2 of those 3 states and pay taxes in both states

I also pay full income tax in NY, even though I live in FL - courtesy of the NYS IRS rules

Having the license should allow me to retain it, even if I am out of state

The cabin is in Oneida county - it has an address, but it is totally off grid and the USPS will not provide a mailbox to my cabin or any of the 5 other cabins in the area - they simply will not do it.................and I have checked

So anything shipped gets redirected to FL

Where exactly is that trying to cheat the system?

 

[zorro]

So i tired again this morning at another local PD - nope, they cannot sign it and frankly i can understand

They cannot sign off on;

• No evidence of addiction
• no evidence of mental illness
• no other licenses suspended or revoked

as examples

But realistically, who can sign off on all of those??


So I have been looking on the NYSP recertification website and this may be an option for me

As a non resident, I can do a postal recertiification and need to submit;

• copy of current permit
• complete their form (which is straightforward)
• send a copy of my FL Drivers License

So this may work/be an option??

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Per @Zerex : "Just get the form filled out..no more alternatives.
Can't be a resident of both states or cheat the system."

I am amazed at the amount of BS and incorrect information in this thread.

1. Download and read and understand the Barrett decision.





Here is a link to it: https://handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtRulingPartTimeResidentsCanGetGunPermits.pdf

Sounds as though Oneida County needs to be reminded of this decision. Maybe time to go to their office with a competent lawyer in tow, and if they refuse, threaten to, and follow through suing them.

Because of the Osterweil v Bartlett decision, you have a right to keep your existing NYS CCW permit if you later move your "domicile" out of NYS. As long as you DO NOT spend more than 182 days back in NY per year, you can be a legal resident of a different state. Thus, where you are "domiciled".

And as for those who say you CANNOT have a NY D/L and one in a different state, they are "correct", but that is NOT the whole truth. The fact is, the government does not allow us to legally have D/L's in more than 1 state at a time. HOWEVER, it is 100% legal to have a D/L in the state you are domiciled in (Florida, Tennessee, Texas, - wherever), AND to have a Non Driver ID in New York State, with your NY address listed on it. The NYS DMV client ID number is EXACTLY the same for either a NYS D/L, or a NYS NON DRIVER ID. EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME!

@Zerex statement above is deceptive and wrong. You CAN be a "resident" of say, both NY and Florida. But only one can be your principal residence (domicile). And whichever state that you spend more than 1/2 of the year in is your primary residence state, and the one that you need to have your Driver's License in. What the Hell, you can live in Florida 183 days per year, and reside part time in 5 or even 6 other states during the rest of the year if you wanted to! Spend time in HI, AK, TX, MI, and PA for that matter. Yes, you would technically "reside" in those states, - but only Part Time, and as such, would not be considered a resident of them for tax purposes. You don't want to claim Florida as your residence for tax purposes and keep your NY Driver's License. So, you CAN BE a resident of both states! However, in his case, his state of legal residence is Florida, and he would not be a resident of NYS for tax purposes. Of course, if he earned income when in NYS, they will demand their pound of flesh. Just like when a member of an NFL team from another state plays a game in NY, they want their cut.

As far as County PPO's go, Erie County demanded that you provide a NYS Non Driver ID with your NY address on it (in your case, that should be your cabin), and then their internal records should have it to send correspondence to your Florida address.

When you recertify on the NYSP website, they will require you to include your NYS DMV Client ID number. List your guns, your physical address in Florida, and your mailing address. Done.

 

[zorro]

Thanks

The issue appears to be the approach which the Oneida County Pistol Permit office it taking

As you can see from earlier in the thread, they have a very specific form to be completed

The instruction which goes with that form states;

"If the license holder does not supply the fully completed form, signed by a local out of state Sheriff office or other Law enforcement agency, his/her NYS pistol license will be revoked"

I am "happy" to follow that rule - the issue is 4 different PD's have simply refused to sign the form based on the content/wording

I called Oneida and told them of the issues and the response was literally.................."that is your problem, some departments will sign and some wont, but you need it completed or we will revoke the permit at renewal"

I also had a full background check conducted at the local Sheriff department in FL and informed Oneida - they were not interested and again insisted on their specific form


I am going to submit a postal request to the NYSP recertification dept to see if that works

 

[wirehairfan]

I can't imagine any law enforcement agency will sign that form. It asks them to certify things they can't possibly know.

If Oneida County's position is "get that specific form signed or we will revoke your permit" you need a good 2A lawyer. Around here Amy Bellantoni has the best reputation Second Amendment - New York Gun Rights Attorneys . You need someone like that.

 

[zorro]

Per @Zerex : "Just get the form filled out..no more alternatives.
Can't be a resident of both states or cheat the system."

I am amazed at the amount of BS and incorrect information in this thread.

1. Download and read and understand the Barrett decision.

View attachment 208441



Here is a link to it: https://handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtRulingPartTimeResidentsCanGetGunPermits.pdf

Sounds as though Oneida County needs to be reminded of this decision. Maybe time to go to their office with a competent lawyer in tow, and if they refuse, threaten to, and follow through suing them.

Because of the Osterweil v Bartlett decision, you have a right to keep your existing NYS CCW permit if you later move your "domicile" out of NYS. As long as you DO NOT spend more than 182 days back in NY per year, you can be a legal resident of a different state. Thus, where you are "domiciled".

And as for those who say you CANNOT have a NY D/L and one in a different state, they are "correct", but that is NOT the whole truth. The fact is, the government does not allow us to legally have D/L's in more than 1 state at a time. HOWEVER, it is 100% legal to have a D/L in the state you are domiciled in (Florida, Tennessee, Texas, - wherever), AND to have a Non Driver ID in New York State, with your NY address listed on it. The NYS DMV client ID number is EXACTLY the same for either a NYS D/L, or a NYS NON DRIVER ID. EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME!

@Zerex statement above is deceptive and wrong. You CAN be a "resident" of say, both NY and Florida. But only one can be your principal residence (domicile). And whichever state that you spend more than 1/2 of the year in is your primary residence state, and the one that you need to have your Driver's License in. What the Hell, you can live in Florida 183 days per year, and reside part time in 5 or even 6 other states during the rest of the year if you wanted to! Spend time in HI, AK, TX, MI, and PA for that matter. Yes, you would technically "reside" in those states, - but only Part Time, and as such, would not be considered a resident of them for tax purposes. You don't want to claim Florida as your residence for tax purposes and keep your NY Driver's License. So, you CAN BE a resident of both states! However, in his case, his state of legal residence is Florida, and he would not be a resident of NYS for tax purposes. Of course, if he earned income when in NYS, they will demand their pound of flesh. Just like when a member of an NFL team from another state plays a game in NY, they want their cut.

As far as County PPO's go, Erie County demanded that you provide a NYS Non Driver ID with your NY address on it (in your case, that should be your cabin), and then their internal records should have it to send correspondence to your Florida address.

When you recertify on the NYSP website, they will require you to include your NYS DMV Client ID number. List your guns, your physical address in Florida, and your mailing address. Done.

So you think that if I apply for a "NY non driver ID" at a NY DMV, that would allow me to certify online?

I am in NY next week and could likely go into a DMV and get that applied for

 

[VietnamEraVet]

So you think that if I apply for a "NY non driver ID" at a NY DMV, that would allow me to certify online?

I am in NY next week and could likely go into a DMV and get that applied for

I think this may be my last post on this thread. I have laid out in exact detail what someone needs to do. I have laid out what to look up, what you need to do, and what documents you need to have when you go to the NYS DMV to get a NYS Non Driver ID. I can do no more.

 

[byron]

you do not need a NYS drivers license or ID this is from the NYS recertification site

Out of state residents who do not possess either a New York State Driver License or Non-Driver Identification Card must use the paper form to recertify and must attach a copy of their driver’s license or non-driver identification from their state of issuance.

gunsafety.ny.gov/pistol-permit-recertification

Pistol Permit Recertification

gunsafety.ny.gov

 

[VietnamEraVet]

you do not need a NYS drivers license or ID this is from the NYS recertification site

Out of state residents who do not possess either a New York State Driver License or Non-Driver Identification Card must use the paper form to recertify and must attach a copy of their driver’s license or non-driver identification from their state of issuance.

gunsafety.ny.gov/pistol-permit-recertification

Pistol Permit Recertification

gunsafety.ny.gov

OMFG. The false info will not die!

See attached right from their website, snip posted below: "Recertification can only be done online. State Police will no longer accept paper forms." And when you do it online, they require you to submit your NYS DMV Client ID Number... the number that is the exact same for NYS Drivers Licenses, or NYS Non Driver ID's.

 

[Parzival]

You can change the state and use your out of state DL number.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

You can change the state and use your out of state DL number.View attachment 208445

Not at all certain where you got your form from, as that is NOT what shows on the NYSP Recertification website. How do I know? I recertified LAST WEEK, and took screen shots of the pages with my data as I did it.

 

[Parzival]

Not at all certain where you got your form from, as that is NOT what shows on the NYSP Recertification website. How do I know? I recertified LAST WEEK, and took screen shots of the pages with my data as I did it.

Here's the whole page, as you can see the screen shot was taken right now.