Rand Paul introduces Justice for Breonna Taylor Act to ban "no-knock" warrants

[spat]

You are okay with a knock on the door at midnight for a drug warrant? I sure as hell am not. If someone knocks on my door after I have been asleep, I’m a dead man and so will most here if they hear the knock by the time they get out of bed and walk down the stairs.

If they gave them a few minutes notice to wake and an opportunity to check things out and make sure it really was the cops, then yes.

It would be silly to limit warrant service to business hours only.

If you have time to wake up, call 911, look out the window, etc, then thats enough.

I work "C" shift, I would actually react to a warrant service better at 3am than 3pm.

 

[spat]

The only people who would call for no no-knock’s have no clue. It’s that simple. You’ll never get evidence anymore and you’ll prepare people to attack officers.

Whats the best way to take down violent felons. When they least expect it or announcing yourself and giving them 5.... 10..... 20 minutes to arm up and get into place to take you out.

Knock knock knock “we’d like to come in to get your 20 kilos and 1 million in counterfeit money”

Yea we’ll be right there.. give us a few minutes.

meanwhile there’s a burn pit going in the back yard burning the money and the drugs are being flushed down the drain.

Can’t make this dumb shit up. Good thing it’ll never go anywhere.

Ir doesn’t matter if it's the "best way" to take down felons.

About 3/4 of the bill of rights is there specifically to prevent government from doing things the "best way".

We decided hundreds of years ago that we were willing to let some criminals get away to protect the rights of the rest of us.

So if the price for eliminating no knock warrants is that we let criminals get away with their crimes 99.6% of the time instead of 99.5%, I think it's well worth it.

 

[Chevusa]

Ir doesn’t matter if it's the "best way" to take down felons.

About 3/4 of the bill of rights is there specifically to prevent government from doing things the "best way".

We decided hundreds of years ago that we were willing to let some criminals get away to protect the rights of the rest of us.

So if the price for eliminating no knock warrants is that we let criminals get away with their crimes 99.6% of the time instead of 99.5%, I think it's well worth it.

They waived their rights when they engaged in a criminal enterprise and sufficient cause was demonstrated for the issuance of a warrant. The constitution specifies a difference between warrantless and warranted searches. It stands when given strict scrutiny.

 

[spat]

They waived their rights when they engaged in a criminal enterprise and sufficient cause was demonstrated for the issuance of a warrant. The constitution specifies a difference between warrantless and warranted searches. It stands when given strict scrutiny.

The constitution bans "unreasonable" searches.

You can find a judge to sign off on anything. That doesn't make it reasonable.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If they gave them a few minutes notice to wake and an opportunity to check things out and make sure it really was the cops, then yes.

It would be silly to limit warrant service to business hours only.

If you have time to wake up, call 911, look out the window, etc, then thats enough.

I work "C" shift, I would actually react to a warrant service better at 3am than 3pm.

Ir doesn’t matter if it's the "best way" to take down felons.

About 3/4 of the bill of rights is there specifically to prevent government from doing things the "best way".

We decided hundreds of years ago that we were willing to let some criminals get away to protect the rights of the rest of us.

So if the price for eliminating no knock warrants is that we let criminals get away with their crimes 99.6% of the time instead of 99.5%, I think it's well worth it.

These two posts contradict one another.

 

[Chevusa]

The constitution bans "unreasonable" searches.

You can find a judge to sign off on anything. That doesn't make it reasonable.

The constitution specifically breaks down warrant and warrantless.

In the United States, warrantless searches are restricted under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights, which states, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Your argument that "anyone could sign anything" is pretty silly. The process is outlined above to trigger a warrant. Once those boxes have been checked the person effectively has waived their rights by their actions. Everyone else? Their 4A rights stand and are still in full effect.

The 4A was implemented to prevent what the British were doing which was searching anywhere, anytime, for anything. If you were to read a warrant, it would give exact names, with exact addresses, and exact items as well as the exact cause to do so.

 

[Marine Cpl]

They waived their rights when they engaged in a criminal enterprise and sufficient cause was demonstrated for the issuance of a warrant. The constitution specifies a difference between warrantless and warranted searches. It stands when given strict scrutiny.

No. It doesn’t work like that. Innocent until Proven Guilty. Just because you committed a crime, that doesn’t mean that your rights are waved. I’m sure you have committed a crime once or twice in your life. We all have. That doesn’t mean that our rights are waived.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The constitution specifically breaks down warrant and warrantless.

In the United States, warrantless searches are restricted under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights, which states, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Your argument that "anyone could sign anything" is pretty silly. The process is outlined above to trigger a warrant. Once those boxes have been checked the person effectively has waived their rights by their actions. Everyone else? Their 4A rights stand and are still in full effect.

The 4A was implemented to prevent what the British were doing which was searching anywhere, anytime, for anything. If you were to read a warrant, it would give exact names, with exact addresses, and exact items as well as the exact cause to do so.

That warrant applies to the criminal. Not the innocent in the house as well. And just because a warrant is issued, that doesn’t mean that property and life of those around the criminal are forfeit.

 

[spat]

These two posts contradict one another.

They do not.

You can conduct a reasonable search at midnight. But you have to knock and announce yourself and give people reasonable time to react.

 

[Marine Cpl]

They do not.

You can conduct a reasonable search at midnight. But you have to knock and announce yourself and give people reasonable time to react.

That I agree with. However according to eyewitnesses , a knock was conducted followed by a forced entry minutes later when it was reasonable to assume that all occupants of the home were sleeping. And they were according to the story given.

 

[Celt]

The only people who would call for no no-knock’s have no clue. It’s that simple. You’ll never get evidence anymore and you’ll prepare people to attack officers.

Whats the best way to take down violent felons. When they least expect it or announcing yourself and giving them 5.... 10..... 20 minutes to arm up and get into place to take you out.

Knock knock knock “we’d like to come in to get your 20 kilos and 1 million in counterfeit money”

Yea we’ll be right there.. give us a few minutes.

meanwhile there’s a burn pit going in the back yard burning the money and the drugs are being flushed down the drain.

Can’t make this dumb shit up. Good thing it’ll never go anywhere.

id rather see 20 kilos burned in the back yard than see 1 infant catch a flash bang to the face when they no knock the wrong house using a freaking crack head as a supposed informant with "good intel".

 

[spat]

The constitution specifically breaks down warrant and warrantless.

In the United States, warrantless searches are restricted under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights, which states, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Your argument that "anyone could sign anything" is pretty silly. The process is outlined above to trigger a warrant. Once those boxes have been checked the person effectively has waived their rights by their actions. Everyone else? Their 4A rights stand and are still in full effect.

The 4A was implemented to prevent what the British were doing which was searching anywhere, anytime, for anything. If you were to read a warrant, it would give exact names, with exact addresses, and exact items as well as the exact cause to do so.

The British had warrants for those searches.

The constitution requires a warrant obtained via due process, but it *also* prevents unreasonable searches, warrant or not.

I never said "anyone could sign anything". That’s a nice straw may you've got there, but it has nothing to do with this discussion.

I said you can find *a judge* to sign anything. The reaction to essentially everything Trump says is proof of that.

 

[spat]

Do not get confused..

This guy is pure scum. He is not just a drug dealer. He is a trafficker of narcotics. A big time drug dealer, he is not standing on a street corner selling dime bags of dope. He is a high level member of the Bloods, or the Crips, I can't remember which one.

Taylor was killed, not because of this warrant or this arrest, she was killed because she chose to live with, date, screw or whatever a serious piece of garbage. She was killed because this scumbag put her below his arrest. The Police did not kill her, yeah, it was their bullets, but her death is her fault and the fault of her man. I guess her black live did not matter to the other black in the house.

He most likely is pure scum.

But I am not comfortable allowing *anyone* in government to decide who is and isn’t scum deserving of the full protection of the law.

In half the major cities in the country now the DA and senior leaders would call this guy a martyr and would call *you* the scum who deserves whatever you get because of your red hat.

 

[Blimey]

How ridiculous it is that when police are shot at serving a legitimate warrant and somebody who lives with the person who shot at them dies we're pretending that the police are to blame?

 

[spat]

The only people who would call for no no-knock’s have no clue. It’s that simple. You’ll never get evidence anymore and you’ll prepare people to attack officers.

Whats the best way to take down violent felons. When they least expect it or announcing yourself and giving them 5.... 10..... 20 minutes to arm up and get into place to take you out.

Knock knock knock “we’d like to come in to get your 20 kilos and 1 million in counterfeit money”

Yea we’ll be right there.. give us a few minutes.

meanwhile there’s a burn pit going in the back yard burning the money and the drugs are being flushed down the drain.

Can’t make this dumb shit up. Good thing it’ll never go anywhere.

The best time to take down violent felons is when they are not home.

Arrest the guy when he's leaving Walmart, then serve a warrant on his vacant house.

And no, getting evidence is not worth risking lives over. 90% of the time they get away with their crines anyway, what's one more.

 

[Chevusa]

The best time to take down violent felons is when they are not home.

Arrest the guy when he's leaving Walmart, then serve a warrant on his vacant house.

And no, getting evidence is not worth risking lives over. 90% of the time they get away with their crines anyway, what's one more.

I guess the professionals will determine the best time. There are many factors involved. Most of which you nor I can even consider.

I know here on the internet your idea is flawless and perfect. Real life is not so.

The warrant isn't just for the evidence on its face. It's to put the bad guys away for a long time. Without it they can go free to continue to put others in danger.

The criminals are the ones choosing to risk their lives by not only their felonious actions, but also by their actions after being served with the warrant. Whatever happens to them is their fault and theirs alone. It is the path they chose.

 

[holdover]

No knocks should only be authorized in special circumstances. They are very dangerous to the officer and innocent people.

If they were to no knock my house, I might end up being charged with the murder of an officer or be killed by return fire. Because I didn't know they were police.

 

[Chevusa]

No knocks should only be authorized in special circumstances. They are very dangerous to the officer and innocent people.

If they were to no knock my house, I might end up being charged with the murder of an officer or be killed by return fire. Because I didn't know they were police.

They won't be at your house. The houses they do go to, they announce themselves. Not that they really need to. These people know exactly who it is. They operate criminal enterprises every day. They worry about being caught daily. They know eventually their time will come. You have no reason to think your door will be rammed. They know theirs will be. It's only a matter of time.

 

[holdover]

No knocks do not always announce themselves. The peoples who house they go to are dealing with a violent group of people daily.

A lot of dealers have large amounts of cash and product and weapons in their home. they are targets of home invasions because of that.

They are targets of people who believe they were wronged or ripped off by them, they are targets from people they owe money to . If someone were to break in my house at 3 AM I have no expectation of it being the police. The police may even have the wrong address. And Im going to probably be killed in my own home because they did not say POLICE . Even then Im not sure its the police.

If I know its the police Im not shooting . If I dont know its the police I may kill one of them and spend the rest of my life behind bars. For what? Officer safety? This puts officers lives in more danger.

I think it does have its place, This is an extreme measure for extreme circumstances .

 

[Chevusa]

I have no expectation of it being the police

You would if you were operating a drug ring out of your home

 

[holdover]

You would if you were operating a drug ring out of your home

Sure police crack heads, people ripping me off , enemy's , gangs, Lots of people.

 

[Marine Cpl]

How ridiculous it is that when police are shot at serving a legitimate warrant and somebody who lives with the person who shot at them dies we're pretending that the police are to blame?

How ridiculous it is when the police serve a legitimate warrant and put all occupants of the home in danger when it is unnecessary. Do you know how many warrants are served differently everyday without the use of a swat team at midnight? Hundreds of not thousands.

 

[spat]

I guess the professionals will determine the best time. There are many factors involved. Most of which you nor I can even consider.

I know here on the internet your idea is flawless and perfect. Real life is not so.

The warrant isn't just for the evidence on its face. It's to put the bad guys away for a long time. Without it they can go free to continue to put others in danger.

The criminals are the ones choosing to risk their lives by not only their felonious actions, but also by their actions after being served with the warrant. Whatever happens to them is their fault and theirs alone. It is the path they chose.

The "professionals" have their interests in mind when they are making policy. Not mine.

Most professionals would prefer to do their jobs differently, but we put restrictions on them because there are greater public interests.

Imagine if we had truck drivers in charge of the DOT for instance. Things would be very different.

Cops seem to have this attitude that they do whatever is necessary to get the job done. Everybody else has to live with the idea that maybe the job doesn’t get done.

Police are no more important than truck drivers for example, society would collapse immediately without either.

But if some truck driver said "I couldn’t stop for my mandatory down time, or the TP wouldn't make it to the store on time" they would be laughed out of court.

Now society *needs* those deliveries just as much as it *needs* those criminals to face justice. But it won't collapse if that one load of TP is late anymore than it will if that one criminal walks free for another day.

 

[Chevusa]

The "professionals" have their interests in mind when they are making policy. Not mine.

Most professionals would prefer to do their jobs differently, but we put restrictions on them because there are greater public interests.

Imagine if we had truck drivers in charge of the DOT for instance. Things would be very different.

Cops seem to have this attitude that they do whatever is necessary to get the job done. Everybody else has to live with the idea that maybe the job doesn’t get done.

Police are no more important than truck drivers for example, society would collapse immediately without either.

But if some truck driver said "I couldn’t stop for my mandatory down time, or the TP wouldn't make it to the store on time" they would be laughed out of court.

Now society *needs* those deliveries just as much as it *needs* those criminals to face justice. But it won't collapse if that one load of TP is late anymore than it will if that one criminal walks free for another day.

Truck drivers are not facing life and death split second decisions and they do not promote the public safety. As far as "their interests" that would include going home in 1 piece. That's why they hit these places hard and fast and without warning allowing criminals to take up arms and get into position.

 

[holdover]

it puts the home owner in a terrible position. if he doesnt fire he can be killed. if he fires he can be killed. You get once chance to do it right, and he is confused in the dark and forced to make life or death decisions weather he fires or not is going to rely on his ability to ID the intruders which haven't ID themselves. Its a bad situation for the cops and the home owner.

 

[Darth]

Truck drivers are not facing life and death split second decisions and they do not promote the public safety. As far as "their interests" that would include going home in 1 piece. That's why they hit these places hard and fast and without warning allowing criminals to take up arms and get into position.

I would actually bet money that truck drivers make more split second life or death decisions on a daily basis than cops.

And their services are infinitely more valuable to the public, that's demonstrable.

 

[spat]

Truck drivers are not facing life and death split second decisions and they do not promote the public safety. As far as "their interests" that would include going home in 1 piece. That's why they hit these places hard and fast and without warning allowing criminals to take up arms and get into position.

LOL, Truck drivers make more life and death decisions in an hour than a cop does in a week.

I'm not sure there are many professions where "coming home in one piece" *isn’t* at the top of the list.

If that was truly their main consideration, they wouldn’t "hit" these places at all.

 

[Chevusa]

it puts the home owner in a terrible position. if he doesnt fire he can be killed. if he fires he can be killed. You get once chance to do it right, and he is confused in the dark and forced to make life or death decisions weather he fires or not is going to rely on his ability to ID the intruders which haven't ID themselves. Its a bad situation for the cops and the home owner.

You are not thinking like a criminal. They know its the cops. They are thinking about it daily perhaps by the minute. Then when "police" and "search warrant" is shouted many times by many people there is no doubt. Usually the people comply and there is nobody hurt. Sometimes they shoot and their girlfriend standing beside them gets shot. So be it.

 

[Blimey]

How ridiculous it is when the police serve a legitimate warrant and put all occupants of the home in danger when it is unnecessary. Do you know how many warrants are served differently everyday without the use of a swat team at midnight? Hundreds of not thousands.

I'm not very familiar with the case but this happens often, and when it happens to white people there are not riots.

At the end of the day the target of the warrant shot at police. So he deserves the bulk of the blame.

 

[Chevusa]

I'm not very familiar with the case but this happens often, and when it happens to white people there are not riots.

At the end of the day the target of the warrant shot at police. So he deserves the bulk of the blame.

The bulk or all of it? If not for his actions no shots would have been fired. In fact he should be charged with murder for Taylor’s death. Some states have that in the books. Someone dies as a result of you committing a crime and you are charged.