Third Circuit Rules NJ Assault Weapons Ban Unconstitutional

[pramaglia]

Hopefully, the NY Safe Act will soon be declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS after this ruling. In a case you are following, the Third Circuit En Banc has struck down New Jersey’s assault weapon and magazine capacity bans. This positive result is an exciting opening act to the upcoming SAF Supreme Court cases, Grant and Viramontes.
Full breakdown here: SAF (@2AFDN) on X

 

[RedBreast21]

Yet another conflicting circuit court. Anyone really believe NJ will honor the 3rd circuit courts ruling?

 

[Criticalt]

Unless any of these cases include cosmetic features, it does nothing for NY....."Assault weapons" are not banned in NYS, you can buy one right now.
SCOTUS decisions are usually pretty narrow. If they decide that MSRs cannot be banned, nothing changes for us. They need to rule that ALL cosmetic features are good to go. Most of the cases ive seen are total bans on MSRs. But im probably wrong because I haven't looked into the specific cases yet.

 

[Darth]

Unless any of these cases include cosmetic features, it does nothing for NY....."Assault weapons" are not banned in NYS, you can buy one right now.
SCOTUS decisions are usually pretty narrow. If they decide that MSRs cannot be banned, nothing changes for us. They need to rule that ALL cosmetic features are good to go. Most of the cases ive seen are total bans on MSRs. But im probably wrong because I haven't looked into the specific cases yet.

Mag capacity.

 

[Tisto]

Unless any of these cases include cosmetic features, it does nothing for NY....."Assault weapons" are not banned in NYS, you can buy one right now.
SCOTUS decisions are usually pretty narrow. If they decide that MSRs cannot be banned, nothing changes for us. They need to rule that ALL cosmetic features are good to go. Most of the cases ive seen are total bans on MSRs. But im probably wrong because I haven't looked into the specific cases yet.

Both Viramontes and Grant have "single feature" language. When SCOTUS strikes them down, ( overwhelmingly likely ) that ruling will destroy the law here in PRNY. The language in today's Third Circuit decision is far reaching and all encompassing. I suspect that the SCOTUS ruling next June will be very much like what was released today. There will be very little, if any ground for NY and the other dozen States that are hell bent on disarmament to stand on. Their only next move will to be to implement purchasing permits. Right now, those are allowed due to the vague language of footnote #9 in the Bruen decision. That footnote will indeed need to be addressed in years to come, but things take time and (finally) things are moving in the right direction.

 

[spb1122]

I wish I could be more optimistic and hopeful, but I foresee the Empire of NY and Darth Hochul just passing a new infringement decree in a matter of days after any pro rights ruling from any court (including the US SC), and the decades long cycle just repeats. Just like Bruen and CCIA farce.

 

[Brawny71]

I wish I could be more optimistic and hopeful, but I foresee the Empire of NY and Darth Hochul just passing a new infringement decree in a matter of days after any pro rights ruling from any court (including the US SC), and the decades long cycle just repeats. Just like Bruen and CCIA farce.

Yes. Attrition of legal funds of 2dA groups is the goal.

 

[Robin]

I wish I could be more optimistic and hopeful, but I foresee the Empire of NY and Darth Hochul just passing a new infringement decree in a matter of days after any pro rights ruling from any court (including the US SC), and the decades long cycle just repeats. Just like Bruen and CCIA farce.

You can bet your stolen tax dollars they are working on contingency's right as I type and they don't care about constitutional right and wrong. Just tie things up in the courts for another ten, fifteen years.
Robin

 

[FP1201]

I wish I could be more optimistic and hopeful, but I foresee the Empire of NY and Darth Hochul just passing a new infringement decree in a matter of days after any pro rights ruling from any court (including the US SC), and the decades long cycle just repeats. Just like Bruen and CCIA farce.

I agree, and would be amazed if NJ didn't employ some new Laws reflective of what NY did with the CCIA post Bruen.
I disdain the negativity of "losing" after winning in scotus, but new york has that effect....A long time ago I figured out that "Gun Control" was really one big money game orchestrated by lawyers and legislators to pit one side against the other with them being the financial winners...think of it as the NFL: now most of us realize these football games are actually entertainment disguised as a "fair" game being played, but look at who really wins in terms of financial gain.

 

[Saltwater60]

I’m not sure why people keep saying the
Supreme Court won’t handle this. I’m skeptical but confident they will make some sort of broad or general ruling that guns can’t be banned based on accessories. If they can it will be hard to have any guns. They will pick apart every gun and everything will then be banned.
As mentioned above semi auto rifles aren’t banned but the features that make them in their eyes assault weapons ban them.
What the Supreme Court needs to do is say you can’t ban semi auto rifles and you can’t ban based on cosmetic features or other accessories. Of course add in a bunch of legal to all onto that. I think they will do right by us.

Now what will liberal states do? Who knows what they will come up with but they will certainly use it to their political advantage. If the Supreme Court does their job I’m not sure how nys and other will be able to get around it, but they will try.

 

[HEX]

Obviously there is going to be push back, but this is HUGE

Unless any of these cases include cosmetic features, it does nothing for NY....."Assault weapons" are not banned in NYS, you can buy one right now.
SCOTUS decisions are usually pretty narrow. If they decide that MSRs cannot be banned, nothing changes for us. They need to rule that ALL cosmetic features are good to go. Most of the cases ive seen are total bans on MSRs. But im probably wrong because I haven't looked into the specific cases yet.

The NJ ban WAS updated to be based on features, mirroring the NY law almost completely.
"accept a detachable magazine and possessed at least one of the following military-style features
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher"

That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.

Even more interesting, this was done by a Biden appointed judge. What does that mean ?

 

[Criticalt]

Obviously there is going to be push back, but this is HUGE



The NJ ban WAS updated to be based on features, mirroring the NY law almost completely.
"accept a detachable magazine and possessed at least one of the following military-style features
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher"

That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.

Even more interesting, this was done by a Biden appointed judge. What does that mean ?

Like I said, I was probably wrong. This is great news! The most wishy washy justice, Coney-Barrett, even seems to be on the right side of this one. Im 100% on Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch, and 99% on Kavanaugh, and recently about 95% on Coney-Barrett.
Even though Roberts is really good on the 2nd amendment, his take on the "Text, History, and Tradition" of the Bruen case kind of scares me. If I remember correctly he isnt crazy about basing modern gun laws on 250 year old laws. I hope he stands tough, but we might not need him.
I know he has been on the right side of all the 2nd amendment cases, but sinse Bruen he seems shaky. The "Text, History, and Tradition" will be a HUGE part of these upcoming cases.

I came back to finish my assessment.
I have 0% faith in the 3 leftist chicks to decide the correct way on maybe one of the easiest to decide cases in US history.
Shall not be infringed, in common use, the right of the people....pretty easy shit here.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Listen, this isn't perfect, but it's certainly positive.
I'm optimistic this may lead to favorable developments in NY

 

[Tisto]

I wish I could be more optimistic and hopeful, but I foresee the Empire of NY and Darth Hochul just passing a new infringement decree in a matter of days after any pro rights ruling from any court (including the US SC), and the decades long cycle just repeats. Just like Bruen and CCIA farce.

I didn't say they wouldn't try, I'm just saying that I suspect the language in the decision by the third circuit will be mirrored in the SCOTUS decision next June. That language is unambiguous, and far reaching. It leaves New Jersey no ground on which to stand, and I suspect the same this time next year for the entire US.

Read the decision. It addresses features, functions, desires, wishes and unicorn poop. It addresses magazines in the same manner. Literally NOTHING in New Jersey's law remains as viable legislation.

Try as she undoubtedly will, if the SCOTUS decision mirrors the third circuit ruling, Hochul's dreams of civilian disarmament will have to find a completely different direction from which to operate. I suspect she will push the licensing and permit to purchase angle hard, but that will be tough to justify in court.

 

[HEX]

Listen, this isn't perfect, but it's certainly positive.
I'm optimistic this may lead to favorable developments in NY

Sure, this is essentially my thought, except that I don't even know that I'd say I'm optimistic.. Like many of you, I'm just too cynical and too sick ofNY for that in general, but it is still big. While I did say, "That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.", in my previous post , that for sure doesn't mean that I don't fully expect them to come up with whatever bullshit they can. I expect difficult and expensive licensing schemes will the the place of bans in NJ and probably later NY, much as other members have suggested in this and the supreme court case. It'll never stop, and these states will ground and pound gun owners in whatever way they can for as long as they can.

It leaves New Jersey no ground on which to stand, and I suspect the same this time next year for the entire US.

Read the decision. It addresses features, functions, desires, wishes and unicorn poop. It addresses magazines in the same manner. Literally NOTHING in New Jersey's law remains as viable legislation.

Try as she undoubtedly will, if the SCOTUS decision mirrors the third circuit ruling, Hochul's dreams of civilian disarmament will have to find a completely different direction from which to operate. I suspect she will push the licensing and permit to purchase angle hard, but that will be tough to justify in court.

I admit I haven't read all of it, but (as other members have already said) it may leave New Jersey no ground on which to stand under their current laws, but I expect it'll be maybe only days (perhaps hours) before we see new laws immediately applied to circumvent the decision just as we saw here with CCIA.
They'll have to admit we're allowed to own them, but what's in the decision to stop them from saying "OK, you can own these things, but we can make you get a license under extreme difficulty and expense to do so" ? I don't actually know if there's anything in there that stops them from doing and I'd be pleased to be wrong here.

 

[Mosinitis]

Over the last three decades I watched and cheered for a number of 2a victories in courts including SCOTUS. In practice it's much harder to buy and own in NY now what you could easily do three decades ago. Gun ownership progressed to more restrictive despite all these victories.
As long as it is tied to politics, we will be screwed by both political parties despite the rhetoric.

 

[Grimscale]

That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.

So what you're saying is that even after SCOTUS rules these bans un-Constitutional NY's laws will still be in effect.

wonderful.

 

[Bigfoot]

It's the Democrats who have been the gun grabbers. The Democrats do not care what the Constitution says or what SCOTUS rulings are made. They don't care about either one of those two things. What they do care about is disarmament and absolute power. They have more than proven that.

I think the only thing that will be truly effective as far as Democrats continuing to violate the people's 2A rights regardless of court decisions. Is to hold the Democrat politicians that do so legally/criminally responsible for their actions.

Until then, the Democrats will continue to ignore/work around any court decisions that interfere with their anti-America agenda. As it stands, there is no downside for the Democrats to keep on doing what they do. So why would they stop? They won't, well, not until they are faced with legal consequences for their unconstitutional actions. IMHO

 

[Criticalt]

Sure, this is essentially my thought, except that I don't even know that I'd say I'm optimistic.. Like many of you, I'm just too cynical and too sick ofNY for that in general, but it is still big. While I did say, "That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.", in my previous post , that for sure doesn't mean that I don't fully expect them to come up with whatever bullshit they can. I expect difficult and expensive licensing schemes will the the place of bans in NJ and probably later NY, much as other members have suggested in this and the supreme court case. It'll never stop, and these states will ground and pound gun owners in whatever way they can for as long as they can.


I admit I haven't read all of it, but (as other members have already said) it may leave New Jersey no ground on which to stand under their current laws, but I expect it'll be maybe only days (perhaps hours) before we see new laws immediately applied to circumvent the decision just as we saw here with CCIA.
They'll have to admit we're allowed to own them, but what's in the decision to stop them from saying "OK, you can own these things, but we can make you get a license under extreme difficulty and expense to do so" ? I don't actually know if there's anything in there that stops them from doing and I'd be pleased to be wrong here.

I suggest if anyone wants a full feature MSR after a positive decision, you better start saving money now. There may be a very short window to legally buy one. Maybe plan a trip to PA or Ohio 3 minutes after the decision drops.
Of course im being a bit hyperbolic, but this happened in California with a gun case a few years back. I forget what it was about, maybe magazine limits, but I do remember Californians had a few hours/days to load up on the temporarily unbanned items.....pretty sure it was "high capacity" magazines.

 

[Criticalt]

I didn't say they wouldn't try, I'm just saying that I suspect the language in the decision by the third circuit will be mirrored in the SCOTUS decision next June. That language is unambiguous, and far reaching. It leaves New Jersey no ground on which to stand, and I suspect the same this time next year for the entire US.

Read the decision. It addresses features, functions, desires, wishes and unicorn poop. It addresses magazines in the same manner. Literally NOTHING in New Jersey's law remains as viable legislation.

Try as she undoubtedly will, if the SCOTUS decision mirrors the third circuit ruling, Hochul's dreams of civilian disarmament will have to find a completely different direction from which to operate. I suspect she will push the licensing and permit to purchase angle hard, but that will be tough to justify in court.

Undoubtedly NYS already has an army of tax payer funded lawyers drawing up multiple ways to infringe on our rights after a positive decision in this case.
Like ive said before, these cases don't even apply to me. Ive never owned an MSR, and DIDN'T plan on ever buying one. Im really just into hunting, and self defense off my property, ie, concealed carry.
Ive fired a LOT of MSRs and assault rifles both in the Army and out, but shooting off $600 of ammo at targets in the yard isn't my thing.
That said, im really considering an AR-15 in 556, or maybe an AR10 in 308. One high end rifle with all the fixings.

 

[Bigfoot]

I suggest if anyone wants a full feature MSR after a positive decision, you better start saving money now. There may be a very short window to legally buy one. Maybe plan a trip to PA or Ohio 3 minutes after the decision drops.
Of course im being a bit hyperbolic, but this happened in California with a gun case a few years back. I forget what it was about, maybe magazine limits, but I do remember Californians had a few hours/days to load up on the temporarily unbanned items.....pretty sure it was "high capacity" magazines.

I remember that; it was about the so-called high capacity mags.

 

[Tisto]

Sure, this is essentially my thought, except that I don't even know that I'd say I'm optimistic.. Like many of you, I'm just too cynical and too sick ofNY for that in general, but it is still big. While I did say, "That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.", in my previous post , that for sure doesn't mean that I don't fully expect them to come up with whatever bullshit they can. I expect difficult and expensive licensing schemes will the the place of bans in NJ and probably later NY, much as other members have suggested in this and the supreme court case. It'll never stop, and these states will ground and pound gun owners in whatever way they can for as long as they can.


I admit I haven't read all of it, but (as other members have already said) it may leave New Jersey no ground on which to stand under their current laws, but I expect it'll be maybe only days (perhaps hours) before we see new laws immediately applied to circumvent the decision just as we saw here with CCIA.
They'll have to admit we're allowed to own them, but what's in the decision to stop them from saying "OK, you can own these things, but we can make you get a license under extreme difficulty and expense to do so" ? I don't actually know if there's anything in there that stops them from doing and I'd be pleased to be wrong here.

licensing and permit to purchase schemes will undoubtedly be the next vehicle used. They will try to make it so expensive and cumbersome with training requirements that you'll just not bother. This is the "Footnote # 9" in BRUEN. That basically says that licensing and training requirements are "..not presumably unconstitutional as long as they don't present an undue burden.." But, that is where the fight will manifest. New York and the dozen other States that impose this tactic will have to defend that in court. That is why I said that "Footnote # 9" will have to be addressed - it will - and it will take time. But the trend is going in the direction of freedem and liberty nationwide.

Anyone with an IQ higher than burnt popcorn should understand that when the Democrats are in power in DC, they impose restrictions on a federal level. When they are not in power, they switch to working at the State level. Over the past 50ish years, they've been quite successful. But now the people are coming to realize that they've already eaten half the elephant one slice at a time, and they've had enough.

It is my opinion that immigration (legal and illegal as well) is the biggest threat to the 2A. People that have no history of owning arms do not understand the importance of it and will not fight to maintain it. Which political party is hell bent on flooding the country with these people ?

 

[Zerex]

SCOTUS will either have to accept the case on Appeal from NJ, or let it stand as settled law but it would only affect the 3rd Circuit.

Scotus will likely incorporate this decision in the upcoming AW cases, this fall's term, so no effect on NYS yet.

The 3rd decision does cite the evil features prohibition, as unconstitutional as is the mag limit ban.

 

[spat]

Obviously there is going to be push back, but this is HUGE



The NJ ban WAS updated to be based on features, mirroring the NY law almost completely.
"accept a detachable magazine and possessed at least one of the following military-style features
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher"

That sets an absolute precedent for NY's laws to be brought down next.

Even more interesting, this was done by a Biden appointed judge. What does that mean ?

IIRC the feature based bans got started because the named weapons bans were already ruled against because they were arbitrary.

"This gun is banned if these guys make it, but this other company can make an identical one and it's not banned" was not defensible even without a 2A argument.

 

[spat]

SCOTUS will either have to accept the case on Appeal from NJ, or let it stand as settled law but it would only affect the 3rd Circuit.

Scotus will likely incorporate this decision in the upcoming AW cases, this fall's term, so no effect on NYS yet.

The 3rd decision does cite the evil features prohibition, as unconstitutional as is the mag limit ban.

Or, NJ doesn't appeal it because they know they'll lose and they don't want to make that ruling apply nationwide.

 

[Uzi]

Just my annual reminder after well over a decade now, The SAFE ACT is here to stay, and NYS gun laws will only get worse NOT better. It's really that simple folks.

 

[Brawny71]

Just my annual reminder after well over a decade now, The SAFE ACT is here to stay, and NYS gun laws will only get worse NOT better. It's really that simple folks.

Financial attrition regardless of precedent

 

[Tisto]

SCOTUS will either have to accept the case on Appeal from NJ, or let it stand as settled law but it would only affect the 3rd Circuit.

Scotus will likely incorporate this decision in the upcoming AW cases, this fall's term, so no effect on NYS yet.

The 3rd decision does cite the evil features prohibition, as unconstitutional as is the mag limit ban.

If New Jersey appeals this to SCOTUS, the case will be GVR'ed pending the outcome of Veramontes and Grant. Then in June the third circuit will once again look at the case and determine that their ruling stands as is. The third circuit court waited to rule on this case until after the last session of SCOTUS dockets was done. This ruling was as strategically timed as it was reasoned.

 

[Grimscale]

This is the "Footnote # 9" in BRUEN. That basically says that licensing and training requirements are "..not presumably unconstitutional as long as they don't present an undue burden.."

Ahh, but NY's pistol permit scheme IS an undue burden.
Imagine having to beg permission of the government to exercise a Right, pay exorbitant fees for fingerprinting, background checks, and processing, now spend hours of your time getting "trained", only to end up having to beg for permission each time you buy a gun and wait until you can get your permission slip amended to include that gun in their registry.
With the costs, delays, etc., of this scheme, it should have been thrown out decades ago.

Maybe plan a trip to PA or Ohio 3 minutes after the decision drops.

how is that going to help? I thought you needed to have anything you buy there shipped to an FFL, and FFLs in those states need to make sure you have all of the NY required bullshit (ie: semi-auto endorsement to buy lowers).

That said, im really considering an AR-15 in 556, or maybe an AR10 in 308. One high end rifle with all the fixings.

I have also been considering an AR-10 or, if I can find one, an AR-9mm for a lefty for the missus.

 

[spat]

Ahh, but NY's pistol permit scheme IS an undue burden.
Imagine having to beg permission of the government to exercise a Right, pay exorbitant fees for fingerprinting, background checks, and processing, now spend hours of your time getting "trained", only to end up having to beg for permission each time you buy a gun and wait until you can get your permission slip amended to include that gun in their registry.
With the costs, delays, etc., of this scheme, it should have been thrown out decades ago.


how is that going to help? I thought you needed to have anything you buy there shipped to an FFL, and FFLs in those states need to make sure you have all of the NY required bullshit (ie: semi-auto endorsement to buy lowers).


I have also been considering an AR-10 or, if I can find one, an AR-9mm for a lefty for the missus.

I still want to see a conservative state adopt the NY pistol permit process verbatim, but swap it for voter registration.

Then let the left spend themselves silly getting it overturned, and then throw their arguments back at them in NY for the pistol permits.