Should We Blindly Support the Police?

[Truebeliever]

This is what I am talking about. How in the hell can I support a group that says this?


This is a fuck off to this department.

Did you read the title of the post. It’s against cops . The brass or politician( the chief) is speaking against cops Policechirfs rarely have the interest of cops in mind. Look at their political stances. The largest police unions have supported CCW . It’s the police chief organizations that have been against private gun ownership

 

[GOPerfect]

Did you read the title of the post. It’s against cops . The brass or politician( the chief) is speaking against cops Policechirfs rarely have the interest of cops in mind. Look at their political stances. The largest police unions have supported CCW . It’s the police chief organizations that have been against private gun ownership

Look, you support all they they and we do. I do not. I am not blind to what is going on

I see the police harassing the truckers. I see unlawful orders being followed by rank and file officers.

In one fashion or another, I have been a cop for twenty years, overall, I support all in the occupation. I know this is a very difficult and sometimes impossible job to do, too many stories coming out of the mass abuses of citizens.

Refusing people to bring these truckers food and water? Beat officers upholding this mandate by the bosses. Physically hauling small children for not following a mask mandate? Yeah, you can support all of that, I will not.

 

[Truebeliever]

That doesn't make them not real cops.

It certainly does. Peace officer designation does not equal cop. They aren’t.

Just an example of what I am talking about. If I took a NYC sheriffs deputy and put him in a sector car, could he or she do the job of a real cop immediately even if a little rusty? Or in a week? The answer is no.
I can take a former county cop or NYPD cop, hand him a badge, gun and some car keys and expect him to get the job done. He might not know all the different radio codes or the local paperwork but he or she can handle a domestic , set up a crime scene , do a child abuse report with notifications, fill out the state required forms , and do all the things that can’t wait until later without me holding his hand. And most of them can make arrests without addition guideness that a rookie needs( some come over from another department where they were still a rookie). It’s not like I haven’t had “ peace officers” make the transition to police officer ie cop. Some do great but have a learning curve.

Not all LE jobs are the same. It’s like saying all military jobs are the same and telling someone their basic training in the Air Force is the same as a guy who was in the Marines. On paper they are treated very much the same but we know it’s not the same.for the grunts of each branch . Each had their own issues and are very different at times. Both can face danger but it’s not the same for most people in that branch of service.

 

[Truebeliever]

Look, you support all they they and we do. I do not. I am not blind to what is going on

I see the police harassing the truckers. I see unlawful orders being followed by rank and file officers.

In one fashion or another, I have been a cop for twenty years, overall, I support all in the occupation. I know this is a very difficult and sometimes impossible job to do, too many stories coming out of the mass abuses of citizens.

Refusing people to bring these truckers food and water? Beat officers upholding this mandate by the bosses. Physically hauling small children for not following a mask mandate? Yeah, you can support all of that, I will not.

They did not do anything to children for a mask mandate. They removed people who refused to leave when the owner of the business said so. Big difference.

If you owned a business and had BLM/Antifa show up or even people from Everytown walk into your business to protest you had an gun, could you ask them to leave — absolutely. What if you are one of these super vax supporters and won’t serve unvaxed because you believe you could get covid from them— remember it’s NYC and there are a lot of pro-vax / mask nut jobs, could they refuse service because someone didn’t wear a mask. Absolutely, they can and tell you to leave. That’s what the police enforced . A lot of those cops aren’t vaxed either and couldn’t eat there themselves. They are enforcing property rights.
Do you think a Catholic cop has to help keep an abortion clinic open from pro-life protesters ? In general, the answer is yes.

 

[GOPerfect]

They did not do anything to children for a mask mandate. They removed people who refused to leave when the owner of the business said so. Big difference.

If you owned a business and had BLM/Antifa show up or even people from Everytown walk into your business to protest you had an gun, could you ask them to leave — absolutely. What if you are one of these super vax supporters and won’t serve unvaxed because you believe you could get covid from them— remember it’s NYC and there are a lot of pro-vax / mask nut jobs, could they refuse service because someone didn’t wear a mask. Absolutely, they can and tell you to leave. That’s what the police enforced . A lot of those cops aren’t vaxed either and couldn’t eat there themselves. They are enforcing property rights.
Do you think a Catholic cop has to help keep an abortion clinic open from pro-life protesters ? In general, the answer is yes.

Sorry to see that you are not getting it.

Sorry that you cannot see why the people are losing, or have lost a lot of trust towards us.

Sorry that you are blind to the lacking support.

 

[Truebeliever]

Sorry to see that you are not getting it.

Sorry that you cannot see why the people are losing, or have lost a lot of trust towards us.

Sorry that you are blind to the lacking support.

I can see why. A false narrative in part. And another part “ why are you stopping me and not getting a real criminal “ thing. But as you should know, sometimes unpopular things are the correct things for the job that is taken. Even things against your own beliefs such as the abortion clinic example. Or the police allowing Nazis or BLM to March down the street if they get the parade permit , and actually protect that right to do so. The business owner’s right trumps their right to protest inside their business. It’s not the police giving fines for Covid.
It’s a politican- the police chief threatening cops not to help the protesters- do you wonder why he felt the need to do that?
People want a vocal support from police officers for their positions on certain subjects, and damn the consequences for them— that so called support isn’t there 5 seconds later. People don’t appreciate or hear what those officers have been doing or turn it into something evil. Go look at what the officers were doing for the group Kyle Rittenhouse was with before the incident . Or what happened to a cop who sent his defense fund some money. Officers have to do things quietly and behind the scenes now.
You want an officer to scream I not arresting anyone for doing that instead of maybe just turning a blind eye to stuff and pretend they didn’t see it.

 

[spat]

It certainly does. Peace officer designation does not equal cop. They aren’t.

Just an example of what I am talking about. If I took a NYC sheriffs deputy and put him in a sector car, could he or she do the job of a real cop immediately even if a little rusty? Or in a week? The answer is no.
I can take a former county cop or NYPD cop, hand him a badge, gun and some car keys and expect him to get the job done. He might not know all the different radio codes or the local paperwork but he or she can handle a domestic , set up a crime scene , do a child abuse report with notifications, fill out the state required forms , and do all the things that can’t wait until later without me holding his hand. And most of them can make arrests without addition guideness that a rookie needs( some come over from another department where they were still a rookie). It’s not like I haven’t had “ peace officers” make the transition to police officer ie cop. Some do great but have a learning curve.

Not all LE jobs are the same. It’s like saying all military jobs are the same and telling someone their basic training in the Air Force is the same as a guy who was in the Marines. On paper they are treated very much the same but we know it’s not the same.for the grunts of each branch . Each had their own issues and are very different at times. Both can face danger but it’s not the same for most people in that branch of service.

Yes, not every person in the military is a combat veteran. But they are veterans.

Even the supply clerk who never left DC is military.

Your idea of what a "real cop" is doesn't match what the rest of the world thinks.

Sure, the guy who's job is making sure the pentagon is stocked with #2 pencils is not a navy seal, but that doesn't mean he's not still a veteran.

Just like the guy who spends all day in his office looking for errors on spreadsheets for evidence of embezzlement is a real cop.

 

[Truebeliever]

Yes, not every person in the military is a combat veteran. But they are veterans.

Even the supply clerk who never left DC is military.

Your idea of what a "real cop" is doesn't match what the rest of the world thinks.

Sure, the guy who's job is making sure the pentagon is stocked with #2 pencils is not a navy seal, but that doesn't mean he's not still a veteran.

Just like the guy who spends all day in his office looking for errors on spreadsheets for evidence of embezzlement is a real cop.

As far as non-LEO think isn’t reality . They call traffic agents cops. They call the attorney general the top cop in one sentence then next breath the top cop is it’s the director of the FBI. Either have physically placed handcuffs on anybody. They aren’t cops .That’s that false narrative stuff I was writing about.

And yes, those members of the military are veterans but not all were soldiers. Some were sailors, not soldiers. A different job with a different skill set. Both face danger but most sailors couldn’t just be handed a rifle and expected to do squad and infantry ground tactics without more training just as a solider would need more training to run a ship. A different job. People can be labeled law enforcement officers without being cops. Technically Transportation supervisors in the city of White Plains are peace officers but they are not cops.
A corrections officer has a very difficult and dangerous job but they aren’t cops. Same with an FBI agent . They aren’t cops like a sailor or airman isn’t a marine. All military members but distinctly different. That’s why LEO is the cover all term.

 

[GOPerfect]

Another example of trust lost....




Just doing their job.

 

[Truebeliever]

Another example of trust lost....




Just doing their job.

What’s the context of the story ? Seizing firewood. What was the reason?

 

[GOPerfect]

What’s the context of the story ? Seizing firewood. What was the reason?

These are the truckers in Canada. Protesting the bullshit that we are all going through. The wood is to maintain health and warmth.

I know, the police are just following orders. No burn barrels allowed.

 

[spat]

As far as non-LEO think isn’t reality . They call traffic agents cops. They call the attorney general the top cop in one sentence then next breath the top cop is it’s the director of the FBI. Either have physically placed handcuffs on anybody. They aren’t cops .That’s that false narrative stuff I was writing about.

And yes, those members of the military are veterans but not all were soldiers. Some were sailors, not soldiers. A different job with a different skill set. Both face danger but most sailors couldn’t just be handed a rifle and expected to do squad and infantry ground tactics without more training just as a solider would need more training to run a ship. A different job. People can be labeled law enforcement officers without being cops. Technically Transportation supervisors in the city of White Plains are peace officers but they are not cops.
A corrections officer has a very difficult and dangerous job but they aren’t cops. Same with an FBI agent . They aren’t cops like a sailor or airman isn’t a marine. All military members but distinctly different. That’s why LEO is the cover all term.

You are entitled to whatever definition of "cop" you want, but if you want other people to know what you're talking about, I suggest you use one that's more in line with the rest of the world.

Sure, some expert on cyber crime may not know how to wrestle a gangbanger into a set of handcuffs any better than you can analyze the logs from a firewall, but that doesn't make him "less of a cop".

 

[Truebeliever]

These are the truckers in Canada. Protesting the bullshit that we are all going through. The wood is to maintain health and warmth.

I know, the police are just following orders. No burn barrels allowed.

So if this was Antifa or BLM blocking roads and having burn barrels, would you say the same thing?
The righteous of the cause has nothing to do with the tactics used to protest it or the tactics used to confront it.
Basically you seem to be asking the police to take your side on things instead of remaining neutral

 

[GOPerfect]

So if this was Antifa or BLM blocking roads and having burn barrels, would you say the same thing?
The righteous of the cause has nothing to do with the tactics used to protest it or the tactics used to confront it.
Basically you seem to be asking the police to take your side on things instead of remaining neutral

I worked the riots in the protests in Buffalo last year. I did absolutely nothing to stop them unless they created a disturbance attacked others or attempted to destroy personal or public property. I don't have to like the movements, I don't have to like what is being protested but I am equal across the board. I do all I can never to violate the rights of the citizens in which I am sworn to protect and serve. This is the kind of policing that I do.

 

[Truebeliever]

You are entitled to whatever definition of "cop" you want, but if you want other people to know what you're talking about, I suggest you use one that's more in line with the rest of the world.

Sure, some expert on cyber crime may not know how to wrestle a gangbanger into a set of handcuffs any better than you can analyze the logs from a firewall, but that doesn't make him "less of a cop".

Yes it does. Not all cops are investigators and not all investigators are cops. Just like not all military people are infantry. Go ask a parole officer or probation officer if they are a cop. The answer is no. Go ask a corrections officer. They might say the are cops in the prison but push comes to shove they will say no. Ask an FBI agent if he or she is a cop. They will most likely feel insulted and correct you. They aren’t cops.
Remember the “public “now call transgender with or without the operation women now.

 

[Truebeliever]

I worked the riots in the protests in Buffalo last year. I did absolutely nothing to stop them unless they created a disturbance attacked others or attempted to destroy personal or public property. I don't have to like the movements, I don't have to like what is being protested but I am equal across the board. I do all I can never to violate the rights of the citizens in which I am sworn to protect and serve. This is the kind of policing that I do.

Did they block roads and people from getting home or work? Or did they have permission (parade permits) to do so. Some did, others didn’t during those protests. So if they blocked off roads and backed traffic for hours, you did nothing ?
So in your book it was okay for BLM to close down highways ? Block traffic , keep people from getting home, to work, to the hospital?
And if they caused a disturbance you would arrest them, correct? That’s what the people in that restaurant were doing when the NYPD arrested them. It was intentional protest inside a restaurant. That’s like an anti-gun nut protesting inside of a local gun store, refusing to leave and the owner calling the police on them.

 

[spat]

Remember the “public “now call transgender with or without the operation women now.

No, it's not "the public".

Just a small minority of pretentious assholes.

The vast majority of people realize that having a dick is a disqualifing feature to be a woman, and they think the people who insist otherwise are crazy.

They may keep their mouth shut about it to avoid conflict, but they do not think women can have penises.


So, just out of curiosity, what is the definition of "cop" that you use ? Not a list, not a "I know one when I see him", but a universal definition.

 

[Truebeliever]

No, it's not "the public".

Just a small minority of pretentious assholes.

The vast majority of people realize that having a dick is a disqualifing feature to be a woman, and they think the people who insist otherwise are crazy.

They may keep their mouth shut about it to avoid conflict, but they do not think women can have penises.


So, just out of curiosity, what is the definition of "cop" that you use ? Not a list, not a "I know one when I see him", but a universal definition.

Easy quick answer is a profession where someone routinely makes arrests in public for crimes in progress or shortly there after, not limited to a specific crime or clientele . An investigator determines who committed the crime or gathers information toward determining who committed the past crime. One can be both.
A loss prevention officer sometimes would make a better cop than some police officers if they actually had arrest powers and not limited to a specific crime and area.
Parole or probation officer arrests tend to be limited to a specific cliente and does not routinely enforce criminal law on non clients(yes, they can make arrests as a peace officer to people not on parole/probation but it’s not routine). The FBI and most feds rarely make arrests for crimes in progress ( border patrol is an exception ). (Go look up the particularities of the arrest of Poppodolus) Its rare that a fed makes an arrest without prior approval of the AUSA.

 

[spat]

Easy quick answer is a profession where someone routinely makes arrests in public for crimes in progress or shortly there after, not limited to a specific crime or clientele . An investigator determines who committed the crime or gathers information toward determining who committed the past crime. One can be both.
A loss prevention officer sometimes would make a better cop than some police officers if they actually had arrest powers and not limited to a specific crime and area.
Parole or probation officer arrests tend to be limited to a specific cliente and does not routinely enforce criminal law on non clients(yes, they can make arrests as a peace officer to people not on parole/probation but it’s not routine). The FBI and most feds rarely make arrests for crimes in progress ( border patrol is an exception ). (Go look up the particularities of the arrest of Poppodolus) Its rare that a fed makes an arrest without prior approval of the AUSA.

Interesting notion.

But I don't think regularly making arrests can be a necessary qualification to be a cop.

That would immediately disqualify anyone above the bottom tiers of authority in any police force.

Do people stop being cops when they get promoted to sergeant or above ?

 

[Truebeliever]

Interesting notion.

But I don't think regularly making arrests can be a necessary qualification to be a cop.

That would immediately disqualify anyone above the bottom tiers of authority in any police force.

Do people stop being cops when they get promoted to sergeant or above ?

Some might say yes. There is a saying , you give up one testicule when you become a sergeant, you give up the other one when you become a lieutenant. And you grow a v—— when you become a captain. Yes, some police brass stop being “ cops”. But one can be both.

 

[Acer-m14]

heaven forbid you block up some roads and cause a inconvenience

MLK ...

 

[GOPerfect]

Here is one that I love. The Police, in many different areas are researching through SM and going to peoples homes.

Love it.

 

[Truebeliever]

heaven forbid you block up some roads and cause a inconvenience

MLK ...

Funny how people were angry that BLM blocked roads and highways just a year or two ago. Even passed laws to protect drivers that drive into them from criminal liability in some places and circumstances.

And MLK had a parade permit to close the street and march. And in some cases, they went to court to get the permit.

 

[spat]

Funny how people were angry that BLM blocked roads and highways just a year or two ago. Even passed laws to protect drivers that drive into them from criminal liability in some places and circumstances.

And MLK had a parade permit to close the street and march. And in some cases, they went to court to get the permit.

Nothing says "right to petition your government for a redress of grievances" like begging for permission to demonstrate.


If the truckers were pulling people out of cars and beating them, I'd support running them over too. But they're not.


And lastly, not all causes are equal. Some POS overdosing during his arrest is not the same as the government forcing people into experimental medical treatment. It just isn't.

 

[Truebeliever]

Here is one that I love. The Police, in many different areas are researching through SM and going to peoples homes.

Love it.

If you don’t think social media and sites like this one aren’t looked at your crazy.
Cop sites and Facebook pages are looked at too. Anything that is public especially if someone calls about it. And someone always does.
Go look at this:

NYC pols, lawyers call for deeper probe into racist rants allegedly made by NYPD anti-harass honcho

Mayor de Blasio learned of allegations against Kobel earlier this week through a separate internal NYPD investigation, de Blasio’s spokesman Bill Neidhardt said Friday.

www.nydailynews.com

He never identified himself on the site but they tracked him down.
Same with This:

Ex-Cop Agrees to Change Name of NYPD Rant Web Site for Pension | CrownHeights.info – Chabad News, Crown Heights News, Lubavitch News

Go look at the cops fired or suspended for the personal Facebook accounts

Fall River police officer suspended after controversial Facebook post

turnto10.com

Police Officer Fired Over Facebook Post Calling BLM Protesters 'Terrorists'

Sara Erwin was fired from the Hopewell Township Police Department, while another officer who reacted to her post was suspended and demoted.

www.newsweek.com

Go look at the criticism of the school shooting in Florida or the Pulse nightclub or the Ft Hood shooter and the police/FBI lack of just looking at their social media to find out the answers .

If you make the info public, expect people to look at it . Antifa uses it to cocordinate . Jan 6 people used Facebook ( not Parler) to coordinate their activities. Same with a lot of proven terrorist.



And yes, the police showing up to the door can be a chilling effect. And I think it was intentional. But I bet someone in that group told the police about it.

 

[Truebeliever]

Nothing says "right to petition your government for a redress of grievances" like begging for permission to demonstrate.


If the truckers were pulling people out of cars and beating them, I'd support running them over too. But they're not.


And lastly, not all causes are equal. Some POS overdosing during his arrest is not the same as the government forcing people into experimental medical treatment. It just isn't.

Parade permits are done so interstructure to accommodate can be done. They basically have to give the permit. There are at least two SCOTUS cases on it. It keeps hospitals and courts from being blocked and makes sure people can have alternative routes around it if they choose.

The right not to have to listen is protected. Not to captive —

They even had to give one to the KKK to March through a predominantly Jewish area of Skokie, IL. .

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

@Truebeliever

At what point would you expect police to "not follow bad orders" from politicians or bosses but to ignore them for the right moral reasons?


At what point does "just following orders, or just doing my job" go too far?


This is a straw man argument but it's not irrelevant.
There were a lot of "good Germans" who just did their jobs too.

 

[Truebeliever]

@Truebeliever

At what point would you expect police to "not follow bad orders" from politicians or bosses but to ignore them for the right moral reasons?


At what point does "just following orders, or just doing my job" go too far?


This is a straw man argument but it's not irrelevant.
There were a lot of "good Germans" who just did their jobs too.

It depends on what it is. But you can’t have it both ways. Antifa websites should be monitored right? Often they tell what their target is. We aren’t talking private messages but a public forum. And as private citizens, why shouldn’t a police officer read public stuff and maybe agree with it. Remember how the police Lt sent money to Rittenhouse’s defense fund. Or go perfect read and post here.
If someone on a forum posted potential illegal stuff, why shouldn’t the police act.

And just for argument sake, maybe someone in the group suggested something illegal, and the police officers handing out those fliers was their way of warning them not to do it.

 

[spat]

It depends on what it is. But you can’t have it both ways. Antifa websites should be monitored right? Often they tell what their target is. We aren’t talking private messages but a public forum. And as private citizens, why shouldn’t a police officer read public stuff and maybe agree with it. Remember how the police Lt sent money to Rittenhouse’s defense fund. Or go perfect read and post here.
If someone on a forum posted potential illegal stuff, why shouldn’t the police act.

And just for argument sake, maybe someone in the group suggested something illegal, and the police officers handing out those fliers was their way of warning them not to do it.

Certainly anything posted publicly is fair game to be monitored.

And any clear and present suggestion of an actual crime being planned or committed should be dealt with appropriately.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

The line is crossed when government agents attempt to influence or disrupt *non* criminal dissent.

When you start seeing government agents "stop by" to "have a chat" and the intention is intimidation not investigation, then we have a very serious problem.

 

[spat]

Parade permits are done so interstructure to accommodate can be done. They basically have to give the permit. There are at least two SCOTUS cases on it. It keeps hospitals and courts from being blocked and makes sure people can have alternative routes around it if they choose.

The right not to have to listen is protected. Not to captive —

They even had to give one to the KKK to March through a predominantly Jewish area of Skokie, IL. .

I understand the justification.

I just don't agree with it.

It's perfectly reasonable to have a process where a group can reserve a public resource like a road for the purpose of a demonstration.

It's another thing entirely to criminalize such a demonstration if conducted without government permission.

As soon as permission must be obtained, the right has ceased to be a right.