Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)

[holdover]

They always slant the story,

It’s possible the Russians are running out of cruise missiles and, in order to keep up the pressure on Mariupol’s defenders, have no choice but to drop bombs.


Its also way more economical, You would need dozens or hundreds of them . and you dont want to launch million dollar cruise missiles when dumb bombs can do the job .

I believe the Russians were hoping to capture the steel plant as in tact as possible as a war trophy. The second largest steel plant in Europe.

But the thing is a natural fortress, and the Russians remember the tractor works in Stalingrad and what a nightmare that was. The Germans and Russians losing thousands of troops in a single day slugging it out in close combat. Better to send in the bombers than the infantry. Hopeing the Ukis had enough and just surrender.

From what I gather there isnt as many of them left . Originally 14,000, Now, estimates are 2K or less. The Russkies can go in and dig them out with flame throwers and satchel charges but its still going to be costly.

 

[holdover]

If you have nuclear weapons, but your enemies believe you lack the will to use them, then why bother with them at all.


I certainly hope all our enemies believe we have the will.

Well there should be no doubt, the difference is using them offensively or just defensively ,and it is in our policy to use nuclear weapons if we are attacked , same as the Russians .

Do you think the Russians made a big mistake by not using nukes off the bat ? You think that they should have launched all their ICBMS on NATO and the US?

And because they didn't, you now think they are to weak to use Nukes if NATO attacks them?

 

[spat]

Well there should be no doubt, the difference is using them offensively or just defensively ,and it is in our policy to use nuclear weapons if we are attacked , same as the Russians .

Do you think the Russians made a big mistake by not using nukes off the bat ? You think that they should have launched all their ICBMS on NATO and the US?

And because they didn't, you now think they are to weak to use Nukes if NATO attacks them?

Having the will to use them != using them at the drop of a hat.

Nobody is even calling for putting troops on Russian soil.

Just put 100k NATO troops and 1000 or so aircraft on the Ukrainian border and say "There won't be any working Russian vehicles in Ukraine by Friday, it's up to Putin whether they drive back to Russia, or their burning hulks get towed off by Ukrainian farmers."

If Putin will start a nuclear war over that, then he will start one over whatever line you draw. So, either offer him up the whole continent, or stop him here.

 

[Mosinitis]

Who were the "idiots" that played with fire when they placed an enormous military operation on Ukraines border and then proceeded to invade?
Looks like the invader has paid an unexpected premium in the "price" of that decision.
Lots of talk here about fake news, propaganda etc. I find it difficult to believe the destruction that has occurred in the Ukraine and the displacement of millions of Ukrainian citizens was orchestrated from within the Ukrainian Govt.
In regards to Russia not wanting a NATO County on their border in the form of Ukraine, If Russia occupied or in some way annexed Ukraine wouldn't their own actions place them on the borders of several Nato Countries? Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Poland.

The FUCKING IDIOTS that engage in regime changes and distabalize entire regions around the world.
FUCKING IDIOTS who staged Maidan and overthrew democratically elected president of Ukraine, which plunged the country into civil war. Fucking idiots that arrested over 400 people in this country, when they got scared of election fraud protest. Double standards much?

Ukraine as neutral country creates a buffer zone. Donbass even if annexed is in the East. What's so hard to visualize?

 

[spat]

The FUCKING IDIOTS that engage in regime changes and distabalize entire regions around the world.
FUCKING IDIOTS who staged Maidan and overthrew democratically elected president of Ukraine, which plunged the country into civil war. Fucking idiots that arrested over 400 people in this country, when they got scared of election fraud protest. Double standards much?

Ukraine as neutral country creates a buffer zone. Donbass even if annexed is in the East. What's so hard to visualize?

Looks like Putin's little adventure is going to get him a shit ton of NATO on his border.

He's scared Finland into joining.

Even if he does manage to eke out an eventual military victory and occupy Ukraine long term, it will be the ultimate pyrrhic victory.

He will have destroyed his military, and economy, and have an albatross of an occupation he needs to support, and he'll *still* end up with hundreds of miles of NATO on his border.

 

[Defilade]

 

[Defilade]

Ukraine’s Azov Battalion praised by West despite neo-Nazi background

View attachment Ukraine’s_Azov_Battalion_praised_by_West_despite_neo_Nazi_background.mp4

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

 

[holdover]

Nobody is even calling for putting troops on Russian soil.

What do think will happen if they join NATO?? That was Russia's whole argument.

Just put 100k NATO troops and 1000 or so aircraft on the Ukrainian border and say "There won't be any working Russian vehicles in Ukraine by Friday, it's up to Putin whether they drive back to Russia, or their burning hulks get towed off by Ukrainian farmers."

Thats exactly why he acted when he did. Once NATO was there, game over.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Not sure how accurate and authentic that clip is.
Maybe it's 100% candid truth
Maybe it's 100% fake propoganda
Maybe it's somewhere in the middle

I have no idea

 

[tirwin1]

 

[tirwin1]

 

[Different Drummer]

The FUCKING IDIOTS that engage in regime changes and distabalize entire regions around the world.
FUCKING IDIOTS who staged Maidan and overthrew democratically elected president of Ukraine, which plunged the country into civil war. Fucking idiots that arrested over 400 people in this country, when they got scared of election fraud protest. Double standards much?

Ukraine as neutral country creates a buffer zone. Donbass even if annexed is in the East. What's so hard to visualize?

I have been following this thread since it's beginning. I sense some " my Father can beat up your Father" going on .
Your response to my only post in the thread makes me wonder if a nerve was struck. Maybe one Dad is not as capable as
His little boy thought.
I guess time will tell.

 

[Mosinitis]

I have been following this thread since it's beginning. I sense some " my Father can beat up your Father" going on .
Your response to my only post in the thread makes me wonder if a nerve was struck. Maybe one Dad is not as capable as
His little boy thought.
I guess time will tell.

I am just sick and tired of arrogance and double standards that people in this country consider normal. I criticized other regime changes and attempts as well.

 

[tirwin1]

 

[1341]

I am just sick and tired of arrogance and double standards that people in this country consider normal. I criticized other regime changes and attempts as well.

So you are admitting Putin is attempting a regime change.

 

[Different Drummer]

Looks like Putin's little adventure is going to get him a shit ton of NATO on his border.

Even if he does manage to eke out an eventual military victory and occupy Ukraine long term, it will be the ultimate pyrrhic victory.

The only thing that will prevent Ukraine from prevailing in their unasked for mess is if the rest of the world abandons them.
Especially if the "push comes to shove" moment arises.
If the rest of the world had provided access to the tools they needed prior to the invasion this whole debacle would probably be over now.
I have had the privilege of knowing and doing business with a couple of Ukrainian families. They are very patriotic, proud of and loyal to their heritage. One family I did business with in Bolton Landing would listen to Ukrainian radio every night when the conditions were good via short wave. The two daughters would meet in the kitchen every weekday morning with their Grandmother to learn the Ukrainian language and study about it's culture. The Father, Mother and Grandmother came to the US with virtually nothing. They waited years for their immigration to come about. Once here they worked hard, contributed to our society and became a very successful business owner / operator in Bolton Landing. I wish I could say that I know more Americans like that.
The only thing the Russians can do without getting the ultimate bloody nose is destroy the Ukraine from the air. And they are doing it with gravity bombs that show no deference to what they kill and destroy.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

and he'll *still* end up with hundreds of miles of NATO on his border.

I'm starting to think the NATO on my border isn't the real reason for any of this. I also don't necessarily think Putin is just trying to make land grabs either.

 

[holdover]

I'm starting to think the NATO on my border isn't the real reason for any of this. I also don't necessarily think Putin is just trying to make land grabs either.

You mean he's not going along with the program?

 

[holdover]

 

[spat]

What do think will happen if they join NATO?? That was Russia's whole argument.

The same thing that's going to happen next month when Finland joins NATO. A massive boost to the Finish economy as a bunch of foreign troops get stationed there and start spending money.

Thats exactly why he acted when he did. Once NATO was there, game over.

Yes, it would have ended his ambitions to occupy his sovereign neighbor.

Imagine trying to use your neighbors purchase of a gun as a defense for killing him and saying "I was planning on robbing him next month, and since he was planning on getting a gun, I had to do it this week, so it's his fault"

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Russia is going to be Uber pissed if it turns out that either American or British weapons or direct assistance were used to take out the Moskva



I've seen other places that said the British were involved.

This could turn into a shit show

 

[holdover]

Imagine trying to use your neighbors purchase of a gun as a defense for killing him and saying "I was planning on robbing him next month, and since he was planning on getting a gun, I had to do it this week, so it's his fault"

Thats one way to look at it, Another may be that his neighbor was going to bring his violent biker friends to party at his house And I killed him to protect my family.

Yes, it would have ended his ambitions to occupy his sovereign neighbor.

Thats your opinion.( ambitions) It would have certainly stopped him from going into the Ukraine.

 

[spat]

Thats one way to look at it, Another may be that his neighbor was going to bring his violent biker friends to party at his house And I killed him to protect my family.



Thats your opinion.( ambitions) It would have certainly stopped him from going into the Ukraine.

Killing your neighbor because he was going to invite his rowdy biker friends over is murder.

Thinking you're justified in doing so because "mah children" would make you a dangerous psychopath.

 

[holdover]

It might by law. But the reason is still self protection .Right or wrong. It wasnt that he did to steal his lawnmower. Although that is a bonus.

 

[livingston]

War hits Ukraine's farms: Russian invasion threatens world's breadbasket • FRANCE 24 English​

 

[Mosinitis]

So you are admitting Putin is attempting a regime change.

That would be reversing regime change.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

War hits Ukraine's farms: Russian invasion threatens world's breadbasket • FRANCE 24 English​

I thought California was the bread basket of the world...

 

[pjzwtl]

That would be reversing regime change.

So exchange one puppet for another….priceless

 

[pjzwtl]

Russia is going to be Uber pissed if it turns out that either American or British weapons or direct assistance were used to take out the Moskva



I've seen other places that said the British were involved.

This could turn into a shit show

This isn’t the first time our toys have been used on Russian or former Soviet troops and vise versa and it probably won’t be the last.