Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Poland announced they will be the first to transfer main battle tanks to Ukraine they will be transferring German built leopard tanks. Once Poland breaks that barrier of being the first other nations will likely follow as well as no one wanted to be the first to do so.

Poland answered Kyiv's pleas for Western-made heavy armor with a plan to get battle tanks to Ukraine, and more could be on the way

Poland has offered up Leopard tanks while the UK considers sending Challenger tanks as Ukraine seeks hundreds of tanks to fight Russia.

www.yahoo.com

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Poland announced they will be the first to transfer main battle tanks to Ukraine they will be transferring German built leopard tanks. Once Poland breaks that barrier of being the first other nations will likely follow as well as no one wanted to be the first to do so.

Poland answered Kyiv's pleas for Western-made heavy armor with a plan to get battle tanks to Ukraine, and more could be on the way

Poland has offered up Leopard tanks while the UK considers sending Challenger tanks as Ukraine seeks hundreds of tanks to fight Russia.

www.yahoo.com

Like a screen door on a submarine.

 

[holdover]

What a logistical nightmare of equipment . the maintenence, parts , ammo , mechanics, training on various Apcs and tanks. the inability to swap parts or even men for that matter is going to actually play against the Ukis . You cant operate a successful team like that. it just isnt going to work in the long run. Think of it as everybody brought thier own guns and your trying to find gunsmiths parts and ammo for everyone.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

What a logistical nightmare of equipment . the maintenence, parts , ammo , mechanics, training on various Apcs and tanks. the inability to swap parts or even men for that matter is going to actually play against the Ukis . You cant operate a successful team like that. it just isnt going to work in the long run. Think of it as everybody brought thier own guns and your trying to find gunsmiths parts and ammo for everyone.

I would typically agree with your comment most times. Logistics really matters and can win or lose wars.

Honestly I don't think it matters much.

Chances are they aren't expecting the hodge podge collection of gear to last long enough to need major repairs....

I'm sure all these donations will come with enough simple line changeable parts and accessories to keep them functional for short term.

 

[holdover]

If you have one platoon of German Leopards, One platoon of soviet T72's, another platoon of French le Clerks (I think,) they cannot swap ammo or parts in the field And your going to have to bring more parts then you would if they were all standardized, One type may need more fuel than another , so you have to plan that into the mission also. im telling ya, its going to be a freaking nightmare. Thats why armys standardize thier equipment

 

[1341]

Just curious, then how was NATO going to handle it for the last like 75 years? They have been basically training the Ukrainians for the last 6 or 7 years.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Poland announced they will be the first to transfer main battle tanks to Ukraine they will be transferring German built leopard tanks. Once Poland breaks that barrier of being the first other nations will likely follow as well as no one wanted to be the first to do so.

Poland answered Kyiv's pleas for Western-made heavy armor with a plan to get battle tanks to Ukraine, and more could be on the way

Poland has offered up Leopard tanks while the UK considers sending Challenger tanks as Ukraine seeks hundreds of tanks to fight Russia.

www.yahoo.com

Looks like I was right. That didn't take long....

Britain to give Ukraine heavy tanks, as German ‘Leos’ are on hold

London's pledge comes ahead of a Jan. 20 meeting of Ukraine donor countries in Germany, where more promises of heavy weapons for Kyiv are expected

www.yahoo.com

Britain now going to donate main battle tanks.


Sigh....

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

If you have one platoon of German Leopards, One platoon of soviet T72's, another platoon of French le Clerks (I think,) they cannot swap ammo or parts in the field And your going to have to bring more parts then you would if they were all standardized, One type may need more fuel than another , so you have to plan that into the mission also. im telling ya, its going to be a freaking nightmare. Thats why armys standardize thier equipment

I completely understand your point and it's absolutely valid. A mixed fleet is far from ideal but I don't think Ukraine really cares. They just want whatever they can get their hands on.

Fleet standardization is a huge gain of efficiency, tactics, training, logistics ..... But a bunch of incompatible tanks are better than no tanks.

I can envision Ukraine just parking these things to use as infantry support and mobile AT turrets defensively at strong points to slow Russia down. I seriously don't think Ukraine will be able to mount offensives like their propaganda says they will.

 

[holdover]

Just curious, then how was NATO going to handle it for the last like 75 years? They have been basically training the Ukrainians for the last 6 or 7 years.

NATOs ammo was all standardized. they conducted joint exercises to work out thier issues. Nato forces trained on how to use Nato equipment. The Ukis were not.

Natos parts were not standardized and each country was responsible for thier own equipment that they fielded.

The Ukrainian problems are a bit different. They were all trained on soviet equipment, theres a large learning curve to overcome plus the suppy of parts are not comming from Ukraine but the host countrys they have to be warehoused a reasonable distance from the front , they have to have mechanics that know how to work on them . 3 sets of mechanics!

When a commander requests tank ammo, he now may have to requisition A shit ton , because he needs a standard load of each ,

parts cant be swapped in the field like they can do now. You cant take parts off a destroyed T72 and put them on a Leopard. It makes life a lot harder all around. The Us can swap ammo from the M4, to the British SA80 but it cant swap parts , If your in the field with your M4 and your platoon is all armed with SA80's and your weapon breaks, Guess what? Your carrying an SA80.

What if your company can only get ammo for the Leopards but not for the T80s ? Your fighting force has just been reduced Now they have orders to move into a town and they are half strength, Your commander says its imperitive that the town is taken because its lightly defended and the Russians are going to send reinforcements, you have to beat them there and you have to hold it.

Its really just an all around major pain in the ass

 

[spat]

Looks like I was right. That didn't take long....

Britain to give Ukraine heavy tanks, as German ‘Leos’ are on hold

London's pledge comes ahead of a Jan. 20 meeting of Ukraine donor countries in Germany, where more promises of heavy weapons for Kyiv are expected

www.yahoo.com

Britain now going to donate main battle tanks.


Sigh....

Can I sign up for one ?

 

[holdover]

I completely understand your point and it's absolutely valid. A mixed fleet is far from ideal but I don't think Ukraine really cares. They just want whatever they can get their hands on.

Oh with out a doubt.

Fleet standardization is a huge gain of efficiency, tactics, training, logistics ..... But a bunch of incompatible tanks are better than no tanks.

Well yeah, but they will never be at their full potential.

I can envision Ukraine just parking these things to use as infantry support and mobile AT turrets defensively at strong points to slow Russia down. I seriously don't think Ukraine will be able to mount offensives like their propaganda says they will.

We saw what happened to the Russians when they screwed up their logistics when they moved on Kiev last spring . it was a freaking mess.

No logistics, no war.

These tanks and APCS are all going to be burnt metal in no time. Not because of the systems, Because of the people .

 

[holdover]

The Russians are focusing on Ukraine air defense, to open up the battlefield to Russian tactical air support. Thats why they requested the patriot systems . BUT! The patriot missles cost 2M a copy vs 10K for cheap drones

So when they launch the next cruise missile attack of 100 cruise missles they will be mixed in with 250 -400 decoys or whatever it takes to overwhelm the system. Artillery could target and hit some of them right after launch . its a question of math . the next day they could launch more drones and an air attack on the front lines , wearing down the air defenses to where they have few missiles to fire

 

[holdover]

After the fall of soledar, Bakhmut is fucked.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

The Russians are focusing on Ukraine air defense, to open up the battlefield to Russian tactical air support. Thats why they requested the patriot systems . BUT! The patriot missles cost 2M a copy vs 10K for cheap drones

So when they launch the next cruise missile attack of 100 cruise missles they will be mixed in with 250 -400 decoys or whatever it takes to overwhelm the system. Artillery could target and hit some of them right after launch . its a question of math . the next day they could launch more drones and an air attack on the front lines , wearing down the air defenses to where they have few missiles to fire

I saw a story that already covered the cost benefit analysis and Ukraine already stated they are not going to use the Patriots for these shitty Iranian drones but will use other defenses.

Patriot air defence system will not shoot at Shahed drones, but there may be exceptions

The Patriot air defence system that Ukraine will receive from the United States will mostly not be used against Iranian drones, but there may be exceptions. Source: Yurii Ihnat, Spokesman of the Air F...

www.yahoo.com

 

[fresch]

Like welfare, if you get things free they become disposable.
Tank blown up, jump into a new FREE one.

 

[GOPerfect]

The more that donate to the Ukraine, the more I realize their army is failing.

 

[spat]

The Russians are focusing on Ukraine air defense, to open up the battlefield to Russian tactical air support. Thats why they requested the patriot systems . BUT! The patriot missles cost 2M a copy vs 10K for cheap drones

So when they launch the next cruise missile attack of 100 cruise missles they will be mixed in with 250 -400 decoys or whatever it takes to overwhelm the system. Artillery could target and hit some of them right after launch . its a question of math . the next day they could launch more drones and an air attack on the front lines , wearing down the air defenses to where they have few missiles to fire

Ukraine didn't pay $2M for those missiles.

So the cost benefit for them works out much better.

Also, the correct cost benefit for air defense isn't "how much does the thing we shot down cost" it is "how much did the target we saved cost".

$2M is a bargain if it shoots down the $10k drone that was going to destroy the $100M hospital.

So, the answer is "don't shoot missiles at things that were just going to hit a wheat field anyway".

 

[holdover]

Ukraine didn't pay $2M for those missiles.

So the cost benefit for them works out much better.

No no no. thats what they cost. Ukraine cant pay for spit right now , they may be free for Ukraine but they are not free, and I cant see the US ordering up a few million of them and have them ready next week . the equation is still Russia can produce more decoys than the Us can produce missiles.

$2M is a bargain if it shoots down the $10k drone that was going to destroy the $100M hospital.

Yeah thats great, the only problem is you will bankrupt the country before you stop the decoys . and the Russians can produce decoys by the metric shit ton the US cant.

 

[holdover]

I saw a story that already covered the cost benefit analysis and Ukraine already stated they are not going to use the Patriots for these shitty Iranian drones but will use other defenses.

Patriot air defence system will not shoot at Shahed drones, but there may be exceptions

The Patriot air defence system that Ukraine will receive from the United States will mostly not be used against Iranian drones, but there may be exceptions. Source: Yurii Ihnat, Spokesman of the Air F...

www.yahoo.com

Of course, but the decoys simulate a missile. and the men running the system need to know how to tell the difference. Russia can produce a lot of shit missiles for next to nothing , same size speed only stupid with no war heads

 

[spat]

No no no. thats what they cost. Ukraine cant pay for spit right now , they may be free for Ukraine but they are not free, and I cant see the US ordering up a few million of them and have them ready next week . the equation is still Russia can produce more decoys than the Us can produce missiles.


Yeah thats great, the only problem is you will bankrupt the country before you stop the decoys . and the Russians can produce decoys by the metric shit ton the US cant.

What you can produce and what something costs are not the same thing.

It's also quite possible for Ukraine to judge how many of the $0 missiles they have available, and choose when to use then wisely.

The cheap $10k drones Russia is sending can easily be shot down with something cheaper.

Kinda like you can have both a .22 and a .30-06, and use the cheap ammo for squirrels and the expensive stuff for deer.

 

[holdover]

The more that donate to the Ukraine, the more I realize their army is failing.

I noticed this trend a while back , whatever they are asking for is usually what they dont have enough of

 

[spat]

Of course, but the decoys simulate a missile. and the men running the system need to know how to tell the difference. Russia can produce a lot of shit missiles for next to nothing , same size speed only stupid with no war heads

No, the expensive missiles are much faster and have much longer range than the cheap ones.

The warheads barely cost anything, there isn't much point in not putting one on the missile.

$10,000 150mph decoy drone, or $10,100 150mph armed drone are basically the same things, why bother making decoys at all.

The $10M Mach 4 missile that can fly 5x as far is not hard to distinguish.

 

[holdover]

What you can produce and what something costs are not the same thing.

It's also quite possible for Ukraine to judge how many of the $0 missiles they have available, and choose when to use then wisely.

The cheap $10k drones Russia is sending can easily be shot down with something cheaper.

Kinda like you can have both a .22 and a .30-06, and use the cheap ammo for squirrels and the expensive stuff for deer.

0$ missiles? A hundred million dollars will buy you 50. Russian cruise missile attacks against the electrical grid were in waves of 100 Not including decoys .

One attack. So 200 million US dollars to stop one Russian attack, plus the time of production.

Your not being realistic this isn't theory, its economics.

 

[holdover]

No, the expensive missiles are much faster and have much longer range than the cheap ones.

The warheads barely cost anything, there isn't much point in not putting one on the missile.

$10,000 150mph decoy drone, or $10,100 150mph armed drone are basically the same things, why bother making decoys at all.

The $10M Mach 4 missile that can fly 5x as far is not hard to distinguish.

Well I guess the Russians are totally fucked then.

 

[fresch]

Use seawizz

 

[prambo]

And the fUSA just keeps walking towards the open pit containing shit-covered sharpened bamboo stakes with its eyes wide shut.

Take a close look at what China is doing now near Taiwan.

It's either almost "go time" or they're expending a lot of time and $$$ to appear like bad asses.

If Russia/Belarus goes for a "winter offensive", the Chinese will take Taiwan...and there's not a thing the fUSA can do to stop it.

We're going to get our ass handed to us sooner. rather than later, probably with some of the exact weapons we sent to The Ukrainian Midget.

 

[spat]

0$ missiles? A hundred million dollars will buy you 50. Russian cruise missile attacks against the electrical grid were in waves of 100 Not including decoys .

One attack. So 200 million US dollars to stop one Russian attack, plus the time of production.

Your not being realistic this isn't theory, its economics.

How much did Ukraine pay for those missiles ?

$0

That's why you can't measure this in dollars.

They have x number of missiles to use, it doesn't matter if they cost a trillion dollars a piece or a dollar, they have the same number they can fire.

And no, they aren't going to use them to protect some random substation in the boondocks.

If they need point defense against the drones, they have way cheaper options.

The patriots are for missiles the cheap stuff can't intercept, like ballistics and hypersonic.

Nobody is going to shoot down some cheap subsonic cruise missile with them, they already have missiles and even old school AAA for that.

But not every target is worth defending at all.

The stuff that makes headlines is not the stuff that matters militarily.

So blacking out some residential neighborhood is irrelevant to the military, it's just what makes headlines.

That's also why Russia is stupid to waste their missiles even shooting at those targets.

 

[holdover]

How much did Ukraine pay for those missiles ?

$0

Completely irrelevant. We paid for them . they were not free for us.

 

[holdover]

That's why you can't measure this in dollars.

That doesnt make any sense at all.

 

[holdover]

How much did Ukraine pay for those missiles ?

$0

That's why you can't measure this in dollars.

They have x number of missiles to use, it doesn't matter if they cost a trillion dollars a piece or a dollar, they have the same number they can fire.

And no, they aren't going to use them to protect some random substation in the boondocks.

If they need point defense against the drones, they have way cheaper options.

The patriots are for missiles the cheap stuff can't intercept, like ballistics and hypersonic.

Nobody is going to shoot down some cheap subsonic cruise missile with them, they already have missiles and even old school AAA for that.

But not every target is worth defending at all.

The stuff that makes headlines is not the stuff that matters militarily.

So blacking out some residential neighborhood is irrelevant to the military, it's just what makes headlines.

That's also why Russia is stupid to waste their missiles even shooting at those targets.

This has to be one of your worse arguments ever.