Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)

[Drinkthekoolaid]

You fail to see the difference between a satellite state of a near peer enemy, and an recent ally of a much superior power ?

The bottom line is that the missiles in Cuba were a major escalation in what was a balanced power relationship.

Russia, and some on this forum, seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that the relationship between NATO and Russia is so massively unbalanced that any difference Ukraine could make is irrelevant.


Think of it this way. You have a gang standoff with 5 guys on each side, and one side is trying to bring in #6, that's going to completely change the dynamic of the situation.

But, if it's 5 guys on one side and 25 on the other, bringing in #26 doesn't matter much.

NATO would absolutely curb stomp Russia in a war, regardless of what Ukraine does. That's why Russia trying to make anything out of it is ridiculous.

If Ukraine "became" part of NATO, why wouldn't Russia view that as a nuclear threat 200 miles from their capital?

If Ukraine is NATO, they would almost assuredly house B61 tactical bombs and F35s at a minimum.

And if what you say is true NATO would curb stomp Russia, wouldnt Russia then and justly be concerned to have that force a mere 200 miles from their capital by land?


I don't think Russia is a choir boy here but we've literally and figuratively "poked the bear". The west is picking this fight. They are using Ukraine blood as an unwitting mercenary to attack Russia in some short sighted strategy which is now backfiring.

Instead we should have tried to have a closer relationship with Russia and their energy stocks to keep Russia in our court against the wests real enemy, china

 

[spat]

MSN

That has absolutely nothing to do with a national threat on your border.



The fact that you cant grasp the strategic value of Ukraine explains why you dont know anything about the present conflict from a military perspective. This statement is completely wrong . Secondly, You prove my point that a Massively unbalanced military in NATO's favor on the border with Russia IS A DIRECT THREAT to the national security of Russia .

Cuba's military was not a direct threat to the US until it allowed Russian nukes to be installed . Then it was a big problem. It wasnt the fact that they were allied with the Warsaw pact that made them a threat. It was because of the strategic location of Russian nuclear weapons . It had nothing to do with the size of Cubas military added to the Warsaw pact. They were already a part of the Warsaw pact.

Of course NATO missiles , and large military bases were not installed in Ukraine at the time the war broke out, but that was the goal of NATO. The whole point of NATO allowing/pushing Ukraine into NATO was to put pressure on Russia. Every NATO country has missiles pointed toward Russia and NATO troops stationed there. Would be no different with Ukraine.

Once Ukraine joined NATO The Russians could not stop it from happening , they were forced to act before Ukraine was a NATO member .Once Ukraine was part of NATO the Russians were fucked. It was now or never.



Putin said just as much the other day. And again, you point out NATOS ability to crush Russia while ""not being a threat to Russia""demonstrates a direct threat to Russia in it self. You just proved Putins point.


Your opinion that NATO bases, and missiles on Russia's border make no difference and are no threat to Russia is ridiculous and demonstrates that you dont understand military affairs . I cant argue with it. its a non starter. You cant even recognize this obvious and simple fact.


During the Cuban missile crisis, the US saw the Russian bases and missiles as a direct threat to is national security and acted to protect itself . The hypocrisy and arrogance that only the US can act in its own best national security interests is laughable . If the US was justified to take action against Cuba to protect its national security then that same concept can and should be applied to Russia.

The last 2 times Russia was invaded , it was invaded from the West. Napoleon, actually captured Moscow . The last time was less than 100 years ago and killed 20 million Russians and destroyed its citys . Now the west is attempting to put armies on its borders and you think they are paranoid? you think they are fools? After breaking promise after promise not to expand east , they are to be trusted? Ask the American Indian about the promises the US made to them. They are not worth the paper they are printed on

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych who was against joining NATO was over thrown by the CIA backed Maidan "'color "" revolution in 2014 and was replaced by president Oleksandr Turchynov who immediately saw Russia as a threat and wanted to join NATO. In 2014 the West began arming and training Ukraine .

The Russian language was banned.
Russian citizens not allowed to vote.
West arming the Ukraine.
Ukraine wants to join NATO sees Russia as a threat.


KYIV -- Russian voters in Ukraine were blocked from casting their ballots in Russia's presidential election on March 18, as Ukrainian authorities stepped up security outside diplomatic facilitates and nationalists staged anti-Moscow protests.

Russians In Ukraine Blocked From Voting In Presidential Election

Russian voters in Ukraine were blocked from casting their ballots in Russia's presidential election on March 18, as Ukrainian authorities stepped up security outside diplomatic facilitates and nationalists staged anti-Moscow protests.

www.rferl.org

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1GS29T/

Georgia joining NATO?

What in Gods name was Putin supposed to think?

The bigger picture is that Russia is not under the control of globalists and bankers . they wont go along with the program. they are a thorn in the side of the elitists who want to control Russian markets . Russia is an independent nation that makes its own decisions based on its own policys . it doesnt take orders from the world economic forum, or the world health organization .and any other bullshit globalist bullshit organizations .

The wests plan was to destroy the Russian economy break her up into several regions while avoiding a nuclear war . It didn't work .

You guys don't seem to understand.

It doesn't matter if NATO is 200 miles from Moscow or 2000. Russia is done almost immediately in any conflict.

The fact that Putin thinks it matters if Ukraine is NATO or they become another puppet like Belarus is the problem, because it doesn't matter at all.

Imagine you're locked in a room with an 800lb gorilla and a chimpanzee. Do you attack the chimpanzee if it starts getting friendly with the gorilla ?

 

[MothMan]

Western Europe will pay heavily for any NATO conflict with Russia. The boutique forces of France, Germany and UK would not be able to defeat Russia without the assistance of the US. That would mean boots on the ground. It has been alright with the US sheeple to watch the videos of Uky or Russky orcs being blown apart in the trenches but when that Minneapolis mom sees her daughter droned from above attitudes will change. Then that Country Joe MacDonald song "What Are We fighting For" will be chanted again.

 

[spat]

Western Europe will pay heavily for any NATO conflict with Russia. The boutique forces of France, Germany and UK would not be able to defeat Russia without the assistance of the US. That would mean boots on the ground. It has been alright with the US sheeple to watch the videos of Uky or Russky orcs being blown apart in the trenches but when that Minneapolis mom sees her daughter droned from above attitudes will change. Then that Country Joe MacDonald song "What Are We fighting For" will be chanted again.

The "boutique forces" of Ukraine alone are holding their ground against Russia with little more than financial support.

None of you seem to understand just how unbalanced this is.

NATO isn't a threat to Russia, because if they were there wouldn't *be* a Russia.

Russia trying to pretend that NATO is a threat they need to defend against is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Imagine you were Mike Tyson's cell mate in prison, and you decided you needed to attack him before he attacked you. That's what this bullshit is.

 

[1341]

Earlier today another russian black sea fleet ship sunk by the Ukrainians. At this point are the russians that incompetent or do they really don't care about the losses?

 

[MothMan]

If the Ukraine is doing so well, not. Then they do not need NATO assistance. The red color on the maps grows and the yellows shrinks.

Can’t grow wheat on the Black Sea.

 

[holdover]

None of you seem to understand just how unbalanced this is.

NATO isn't a threat to Russia, because if they were there wouldn't *be* a Russia.

So you feel NATO entering the Ukraine war wouldn't be a threat to Russia? They shouldn't worry about it? Even with the Massive imbalance in Natos favor?

The "boutique forces" of Ukraine alone are holding their ground against Russia with little more than financial support.

The howitzers tanks Javilins Bradleys ,Himars 155 artillery pieces cruise missiles patriot missiles stinger missiles Ammo, advisors, foreign fighters , training, ariel, space ,surveillance. land ariel and sea drones, Dont really count? + Financial support of over 200 billion in US tax dollars, from the US alone . billions in aid from NATO members. millions of artillery shells purchased from South korea and shipped to Ukraine. thats it huh?

Since Addvika had fell roughly 2 weeks ago The Russians have taken dozens of towns , they are pressing forward while Ukraine is conducting a fighting retreat to new defensive positions ( if they can) Addvika had been fortified since 2014 it was a city fortress . It was a hard nut to crack . but they wont be falling back to anything as fortified as Addvika was .The front is cracking. Russians are advancing everyday.

The one thing that should be obvious is the fact that the Ukraine offensive failed last summer. No air support. Without air support the Ukraines cant recapture lost territory. they cant win offensively and they are losing defensively. They're not holding their own any more they are now losing .

 

[holdover]

Earlier today another russian black sea fleet ship sunk by the Ukrainians. At this point are the russians that incompetent or do they really don't care about the losses?

Well they are experiencing a new type of naval warfare, never before seen. and it hasn't been good for them . The thing is, they will improve in the future. This will make them stronger in the long run, they see thier weakness and will try to fix it. The hole in thier game has been exposed. Lucky for them , the loss of the entire black sea fleet will not change the outcome on the ground .

 

[spat]

Well they are experiencing a new type of naval warfare, never before seen. and it hasn't been good for them . The thing is, they will improve in the future. This will make them stronger in the long run, they see thier weakness and will try to fix it. The hole in thier game has been exposed. Lucky for them , the loss of the entire black sea fleet will not change the outcome on the ground .

They've lost half their fleet, including the flag ship, in a land war against a country with no navy....

 

[spat]

So you feel NATO entering the Ukraine war wouldn't be a threat to Russia? They shouldn't worry about it? Even with the Massive imbalance in Natos favor?


The howitzers tanks Javilins Bradleys ,Himars 155 artillery pieces cruise missiles patriot missiles stinger missiles Ammo, advisors, foreign fighters , training, ariel, space ,surveillance. land ariel and sea drones, Dont really count? + Financial support of over 200 billion in US tax dollars, from the US alone . billions in aid from NATO members. millions of artillery shells purchased from South korea and shipped to Ukraine. thats it huh?

Since Addvika had fell roughly 2 weeks ago The Russians have taken dozens of towns , they are pressing forward while Ukraine is conducting a fighting retreat to new defensive positions ( if they can) Addvika had been fortified since 2014 it was a city fortress . It was a hard nut to crack . but they wont be falling back to anything as fortified as Addvika was .The front is cracking. Russians are advancing everyday.

The one thing that should be obvious is the fact that the Ukraine offensive failed last summer. No air support. Without air support the Ukraines cant recapture lost territory. they cant win offensively and they are losing defensively. They're not holding their own any more they are now losing .

They're 2 years into their 2 week "special military operation". Even if they eventually win, they now have more NATO allies on their border than they would have if Ukraine joined.

Their military that was feared across the contintent before this is now a laughing stalk in Europe.

Every former satellite that they haven't yet conquered is now desperate to join NATO before the inevitable comes.

No matter what the eventual result, this has been an unmitigated disaster for Russia.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

The "boutique forces" of Ukraine alone are holding their ground against Russia with little more than financial support.

None of you seem to understand just how unbalanced this is.

NATO isn't a threat to Russia, because if they were there wouldn't *be* a Russia.

Russia trying to pretend that NATO is a threat they need to defend against is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Imagine you were Mike Tyson's cell mate in prison, and you decided you needed to attack him before he attacked you. That's what this bullshit is.

I view the situation more of a different analogy.

Imagine you have a next door neighbor, and that neighbor is becoming increasingly hostile and belligerent. Imagine he starts acting like he's off his meds and maybe does some weird petty vandalism, maybe he starts making threats. At first you might laugh them off but over time they become more serious and you start to believe he will do what he says and carry through on his threats.

Imagine that neighbor one day paces up and down the sidewalk in front of your house with a machete. You tell him to go home.
He ignores you.
He takes one step onto your property
You tell him to go home and he ignores you
He takes another step closer.
This time you tell him you're going to shoot him if he doesn't leave. He calls your bluff and takes one step closer.
You threaten to shoot him again. He steps closer.
The process repeats again.

Sooner or later you're going to shoot him. But what's the actual threshold here?

Ukraine/west/NATO is the unstable neighbor that won't just go home.

 

[RedBreast21]

Funny reading these comments. I haven't visited this thread in a while. But Ukraine has turned out exactly as I thought. It has turned into the most Western propagandized war ever. lol Complete blackout on reality.

It is NATO against Russia right now and has been for a very long time using Ukrainian bodies to the tune of over 400k dead. If you think for one second the U.S. public is ready to take 100 to 1000 casualties a day, I want what your smoking. lol This isn't the highest tech military in the world up against some PJ wearing sandal sporting jihadi with an AK and losing. No, that shit is WW3 over there and new military doctrine being written as we speak. Our military isn't ready for it.

Anyone read the Minsk agreements? Anyone? Andrea Merckel in her book said that the West had no intentions of honoring that agreement with Putin. Sorry but we are not the good guys in this. We are the puppets and the expendable bodies for the bankers.

I understand the motive for the Western bankers and the future of the dollar based global economy for their fortunes. This war has absolutely nothing to do with the BS narrative of Russian aggression.

Some of you better get in shape and walk the talk. It's only a flight away and Zelensky is taking anyone lol

 

[spat]

I view the situation more of a different analogy.

Imagine you have a next door neighbor, and that neighbor is becoming increasingly hostile and belligerent. Imagine he starts acting like he's off his meds and maybe does some weird petty vandalism, maybe he starts making threats. At first you might laugh them off but over time they become more serious and you start to believe he will do what he says and carry through on his threats.

Imagine that neighbor one day paces up and down the sidewalk in front of your house with a machete. You tell him to go home.
He ignores you.
He takes one step onto your property
You tell him to go home and he ignores you
He takes another step closer.
This time you tell him you're going to shoot him if he doesn't leave. He calls your bluff and takes one step closer.
You threaten to shoot him again. He steps closer.
The process repeats again.

Sooner or later you're going to shoot him. But what's the actual threshold here?

Ukraine/west/NATO is the unstable neighbor that won't just go home.

Now, imagine instead of one guy that you might have a chance of beating in a fight, this is Seal team 6 next door, they routinely fire off their Mk19s and M134s in the back yard.

Still think it's a good idea to pick that fight ?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Now, imagine instead of one guy that you might have a chance of beating in a fight, this is Seal team 6 next door, they routinely fire off their Mk19s and M134s in the back yard.

Still think it's a good idea to pick that fight ?

The homeowner (Russia) is trying to mind their own business and the crazy neighbor (NATO/Ukraine) keeps pushing and pushing. Sooner or later too much will be too much.

 

[holdover]

They've lost half their fleet, including the flag ship, in a land war against a country with no navy....

Yep, but its due to new naval warfare weapons. Even the US has taken notice and given the Hooties a wide birth. where the black sea fleet really cant.

 

[1341]

Sooner or later you're going to shoot him. But what's the actual threshold here?

Well if you shot him and you live in New York state, you left out alot of variables in your statement that would raise some questions on legality with the local pd and da.

 

[1341]

Yep, but its due to new naval warfare weapons. Even the US has taken notice and given the Hooties a wide birth. where the black sea fleet really cant.

Didn't the the Japanese use kamikaze boats during WWII?

 

[Mosinitis]

Third Abrams tank destroyed in a duel with Russian T-72B3, upgraded Soviet tank from early 70's.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Didn't the the Japanese use kamikaze boats during WWII?

They used kamikaze by anything with an engine or propulsion, including by foot. Totally different mindset.

 

[Mosinitis]

There is no peace deal with Ukraine on the horizon. The West will keep fueling the war for as long as it can. That being the case, Russia will fight to reclaim all of its historic territory populated by Russian ethnos.

Russia has lost most of Black Sea Fleet in WWII and still won the war.

 

[holdover]

They're 2 years into their 2 week "special military operation". Even if they eventually win, they now have more NATO allies on their border than they would have if Ukraine joined.

First off , I believe it was the western media which said a 2-3 week war. I dont recall Putin ever saying that. I could be wrong on that, but I dont recall it.

Secondly your premise that they now have NATO on their border, doesn't take into account a new 700 mile buffer zone that they didn't have before. it doesn't take into account that NATO did not expand into Ukraine, nor will have troops in the Donbass. or on the previous Russian border . They will be on new Polish border where they have always been. It doesnt take into account that Black sea port at Sevastopol remains in Russian hands .

The Russian goal from the start was ""No NATO in Ukraine"" and it is achieving its goals in spite of everything the west has done to stop it.

Their military that was feared across the contintent before this is now a laughing stalk in Europe.

In the 1980s maybe, Russia had a reasonably small army for a country of its size . Laughing stock huh? Go look at the German French and British Militarys . They practically dont have one. Ours is depleted and spread across the globe like the Roman empire. The Poles have a good military but its smaller than Ukraines .

Right now Russia has the most experienced military in the world , It learned a lot of hard lessons and it cost them dearly, but they are getting their shit together. They are learning the value of close air support and how to use it with great effect. They are at the cutting edge of drone warfare . they have the best air defense missiles in the world. they are improving on electronic warfare, learned how to jam the himars. they have defeated or countered everything the west has thrown at them . They are building new factories . they have the most nuclear weapons in the world so you can laugh at them at your own peril.

No matter what the eventual result, this has been an unmitigated disaster for Russia.

In some ways it was. But the end result is yet to be seen. Say Russian takes all of Ukraine, NATO and doesn't jump into the fight . what do have?

We have a massive combat experienced army on the borders of a weak NATO. A NATO whos goal is the destruction of Russia. A NATO with very weak armys. They are going to have spend a shit ton of money on defense. they cannot relie on the US . NATOS buffer zone is also gone and are only feet away from the Russian army , A new cold war. And the economy's of the globalist west are weak. What was never really a threat before has now become one because of the stupidity and greed and arrogance of the globalist gods.

 

[holdover]

Didn't the the Japanese use kamikaze boats during WWII?

Pretty sure they used all kinds of proto types .

 

[spat]

First off , I believe it was the western media which said a 2-3 week war. I dont recall Putin ever saying that. I could be wrong on that, but I dont recall it.

Secondly your premise that they now have NATO on their border, doesn't take into account a new 700 mile buffer zone that they didn't have before. it doesn't take into account that NATO did not expand into Ukraine, nor will have troops in the Donbass. or on the previous Russian border . They will be on new Polish border where they have always been. It doesnt take into account that Black sea port at Sevastopol remains in Russian hands .

The Russian goal from the start was ""No NATO in Ukraine"" and it is achieving its goals in spite of everything the west has done to stop it.



In the 1980s maybe, Russia had a reasonably small army for a country of its size . Laughing stock huh? Go look at the German French and British Militarys . They practically dont have one. Ours is depleted and spread across the globe like the Roman empire. The Poles have a good military but its smaller than Ukraines .

Right now Russia has the most experienced military in the world , It learned a lot of hard lessons and it cost them dearly, but they are getting their shit together. They are learning the value of close air support and how to use it with great effect. They are at the cutting edge of drone warfare . they have the best air defense missiles in the world. they are improving on electronic warfare, learned how to jam the himars. they have defeated or countered everything the west has thrown at them . They are building new factories . they have the most nuclear weapons in the world so you can laugh at them at your own peril.


In some ways it was. But the end result is yet to be seen. Say Russian takes all of Ukraine, NATO and doesn't jump into the fight . what do have?

We have a massive combat experienced army on the borders of a weak NATO. A NATO whos goal is the destruction of Russia. A NATO with very weak armys. They are going to have spend a shit ton of money on defense. they cannot relie on the US . NATOS buffer zone is also gone and are only feet away from the Russian army , A new cold war. And the economy's of the globalist west are weak. What was never really a threat before has now become one because of the stupidity and greed and arrogance of the globalist gods.

You are forgetting that this little misadventure convinced Finland and Sweden to join NATO.

It's convinced Germany and a bunch of other NATO members to finally take their obligations seriously.

Russia *now* has NATO members on their border that they didn't have in Jan 2022.

And as recently as Jan 2022, Russia was widely considered to have the second most powerful military on the planet.

Now the joke is they have the second most powerful in Ukraine LOL.

And what would a 700 mile buffer *do* for them in a war with NATO ? What does that gain them, even *if* they manage to acquire it?

 

[Robin]

There is no peace deal with Ukraine on the horizon. The West will keep fueling the war for as long as it can. That being the case, Russia will fight to reclaim all of its historic territory populated by Russian ethnos.

Russia has lost most of Black Sea Fleet in WWII and still won the war.

Russia didn't win WWII, the Allies did, and without those allies Russia would have been rolled up like a puff pastry.
Your fantasies have become your reality.
Robin

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Russia didn't win WWII, the Allies did, and without those allies Russia would have been rolled up like a puff pastry.
Your fantasies have become your reality.
Robin

Russia did the "bulk" of Nazi killing.

However, they desperately needed the lend lease act and equipment that was donated to them.

They also desperately needed the allies to draw Germany into spreading out their forces and resources into north Africa, Normandy, France, Italy, the Balkans etc. They desperately needed the allies air force to continue bombing German infrastructure reducing their production output.

Russia did most of the killing and dying but they absolutely would have lost in a 1v1 straight up without the allies. The allies and Russia both needed the other.

 

[1341]

They used kamikaze by anything with an engine or propulsion, including by foot. Totally different mindset.

Of course totally different mindset, I mean the Ukrainians use a camera instead of a human. Just pointing out that this not a new naval tactic. Sinking enemy vessels with another on a one way mission has been around since man started fighting on the high sea. Fireship's, spar torpedoes, manned torpedoes are just some examples and tactics to defeat such threats have been around for a long time. It's just amazing that it has happened so many times to the russians recently. You could probably time travel a frigate captain from the Nelson era to a modern russian ship and he may not be able to understand all the modern stuff but he definitely would have defended the ship from a small boat attack

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Of course totally different mindset, I mean the Ukrainians use a camera instead of a human. Just pointing out that this not a new naval tactic. Sinking enemy vessels with another on a one way mission has been around since man started fighting on the high sea. Fireship's, spar torpedoes, manned torpedoes are just some examples and tactics to defeat such threats have been around for a long time. It's just amazing that it has happened so many times to the russians recently. You could probably time travel a frigate captain from the Nelson era to a modern russian ship and he may not be able to understand all the modern stuff but he definitely would have defended the ship from a small boat attack

other navys like china are certainly paying attention for the next great war they are getting free lessons on someone else's dime.

 

[tirwin1]

Hopefully the same headline will be written about Putin after he dies, even though he was an amateur compared to that asshole Stalin.

Happy Death Day, You Miserable Son of a Bitch

Josef Stalin died on this day in 1953. In his sleep; so, like Lenin, Mao and Castro, and unlike Hitler, Mussolini and Ceausescu, he never paid a price for his crimes. The Victims of Communism remem…

www.powerlineblog.com

Rot in hell you miserable SOB.

 

[holdover]

other navys like china are certainly paying attention for the next great war they are getting free lessons on someone else's dime.

Yeah, those javelin missiles got their attention . those could be used on landing craft out to 5 miles , Himars can hit their ports and staging areas .

 

[holdover]

Of course totally different mindset, I mean the Ukrainians use a camera instead of a human. Just pointing out that this not a new naval tactic. Sinking enemy vessels with another on a one way mission has been around since man started fighting on the high sea. Fireship's, spar torpedoes, manned torpedoes are just some examples and tactics to defeat such threats have been around for a long time. It's just amazing that it has happened so many times to the russians recently. You could probably time travel a frigate captain from the Nelson era to a modern russian ship and he may not be able to understand all the modern stuff but he definitely would have defended the ship from a small boat attack

The tactic may not be new, but the weapon system is, the range speed and guidance is something they probably never expected . And again they are focused on a land war , probably never anticipated a naval battle with Ukraine. Since they dont have much Navy . They got caught with their pants down . Hard learned lessons for sure.