Old Jalopy
.45 acp
Part of the SAFE Act states transfers are not to exceed $10. It's actually written in the bill text. To my recollection it was never changed.
FFL Transfers- What happened to the inexpensive firearm transfers?
- Thread starter TopShot
- Start date
It IS on the Ammunition Check, DL it the most common and preferred identification Dealers use to verify all the information on the 4473 matches and it's also the first question the System requires before proceeding: "Does the information on the identification match the 4473?"
BGC for the Gun DOES NOT cover the ammunition: I have seen persons pass the NICS check and be denied on the ammunition check. If a Dealer in NY let one cover both that's on him, but not the way the Law is written.
Elections have consequences, not vetting and putting effort into voting and running pro-2A candidates has gotten us where we're at now.
person to person eg: you want to sell your gun to your neighbor, both of you have to go to a FFL who will facilitate the transfer and collect the $10. for doing so PLUS (at least) the $9.00 they're charged for accessing the BGC System...The total amount is the discretion of the FFL/NY Licensed Dealer (you must be Registered with the NYSP and have an instant payment account attached to the Dealer Number)
Wasn't changed to the best of my knowledge, and the Fee was an afterthought that was never addressed in the legislation...The NYSP were supposed to Hire Staff, set up a Call Center, and facilitate the entire operation, but failed to impliment so they farmed it out to Tyler Technologies, and how much they receive for each check is undislosed.
Old Jalopy
.45 acp
This is where I have problems. The LAW states the fee amount, it's pretty plain and right there. No gray area. The text of the actual bill is the law, not what law enforcement or an FFL decides is the law. Like a fixed mag per the bill, no place does it say it has to be permanent or epoxyed, but the enforcement decided to put their own spin on it. Doesn't make their interpretation legal.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
Yes, and the handling fee can be whatever a dealer wants it to be. There is no law against that.
It's done all the time, and Dealers aren't bloody likely to absorb that $9.00 charge against the $10. for the Personal Transfer.
When the Semi-Automatic Rifle Licenses was written into Law it duplicated the requirements in place for Handgun Licenses as SEPARATE Licenses (meaning everyone would have to apply and follow the CCIA requirements) but there was no Forms, Provisions, Guidelines, Requirements for Instructors available from the State, and for months there wasn't a way to buy a Semi-Auto Rifle, finally the NYSP and/or Judges decided to amend current and new Handgun Licenses...none of which was written into the law. You have to remember that the people writing these Laws are lobbyist/activists that supply it to their Representative(s) and are often written without input from Subject Matter Experts, and it's not just Guns either.
Not a 100% on the current, but when I did NYS Vehicle Inspections we had to buy "books" on Inspection Stickers at $5.00 each and could only charge $XX. for the Service...now when your Shop Rate is a hundred an hour, that fifteen or so Dollars doesn't even cover the time it takes to bring it inside the Shop and hook it to a Computer sold and mandated by the State.
Gun owners being the cheap bastards we are tend to forget that it cost a lot of money to be a Dealer and there isn't one, you're not going to get your shit....They'll spend a thousand on a Kimber at Auction, pay a buyers premium, and Sales Tax all without complaining, but get all uptight about paying the guy who has to receive it, book it in, fill out the State Forms (twice) review and transfer your information on the Federal Form, use his Computer and internet service to enter it all into a System that charged him $9. the second they logged-on, then have to wait (sometimes a month and multiple checks) to see if you're approved, then if it's a go (won't even begine to cover Denied/Delayed/18~20 year olds) enter the disposition into a Record Book that he has to keep and not only present on demand 24/7 buy keep so long as he's on business all for Ten Bucks....yea, fuck that!
Old Jalopy
.45 acp
So who don't you brake a law and tell them you decided it was OK and see how far you get. LOL
So maybe people should tell their boss they want an additional $200 a day on top of their pay, to cover gas to get to work, the cost of lunch and coffee, walking to and from the car and to and from break ateas.
I think this forum needs to pay me $100 each time I visit because it costs my money to have internet, a phone, and a computer. Not to mention the risk of tendinitis or carpel tunnel from typing. Same principle.
So maybe people should tell their boss they want an additional $200 a day on top of their pay, to cover gas to get to work, the cost of lunch and coffee, walking to and from the car and to and from break ateas.
I think this forum needs to pay me $100 each time I visit because it costs my money to have internet, a phone, and a computer. Not to mention the risk of tendinitis or carpel tunnel from typing. Same principle.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
You don't have to use any FFL if you don't want to or come on this site. That's a personal action on your part. They are providing a service for you and it is up to you whether you use them or not, plain and simple. So, if I walk by your house carrying, I should be able to send you a bill for providing security? Stupid huh? Just as your examples. BTW I'm pretty damn old too, just not as cheap as you are.
I do not believe any Dealers are Breaking the Law, and if you do well then try and get it changed....years ago Jefferson County was charging $3. for each handgun amended on/off a Licenses which was wrong, and after showing them the Law and their subsequent investigation, determined that they were in fact wrong and change their Fees.
Work/Job is a contract between you and your employer: If I had to go to NYC every day for a job, well I would require more money to do so....Travel Pay isn't anything unusual.
As for paying YOU visit the Forum, you've got it backwards: you should be paying to receive the information and entertainment offered here for free...it is NOT the same principle.
The other fact you may not be paying attention to is that $10. charge is to facilitate a transfer between a private seller and a private buyer, it's a Service and FFL's are not required to perform it for you, it's their good graces and policy ti do so or not...the "Fee" was done to pacify those complaining about no longer being able to conduct casual, private sales between non-dealers.
BTW: The State Dealers licenses has to be renewed and paid for in totality every three years....If you have a handgun Licenses now, can you imagine having to do the whole damn thing every three years? FFL has to also be renewed ($200. ) every three years and generally accompanies an in person, Industry Inspection from the BATFE Field Office, which will include an inventory, inspection of the Bound Books and a review of every 4473 from the last inspection to the current day....been there, done that.
Old Jalopy
.45 acp
It amazes me how many are ok with being ripped off. If I had a restaurant and had a burger on the menu for $10 but then said customers had to pay an added fee of $100 for me using my elecrticity and gas to make their meal I'd be out of business pretty fast.
I have no issue with a fee, but don't miss on my head and try to tell me its raining. I mean, it costs usually about $25 to install a scope, but $100 to sit on a computer for 5 minutes. Ot if there's a wait they do nothing b8t check the application once a week. They get their money if someone fails the test too by charging a 20% restocking fee, because its a lot of work to walk the 20 feet from the back room to the shelves.
There's a lot, a lot, of people who feel gun shops in NY like all this bullshit they put us through because it lines their pockets.
As for paying to be a member of a forum, maybe if I actually got something of value. This is a gun forum flooded with political crap that has nothing to do with guns. Forums need members, members don't always need forums.
I have no issue with a fee, but don't miss on my head and try to tell me its raining. I mean, it costs usually about $25 to install a scope, but $100 to sit on a computer for 5 minutes. Ot if there's a wait they do nothing b8t check the application once a week. They get their money if someone fails the test too by charging a 20% restocking fee, because its a lot of work to walk the 20 feet from the back room to the shelves.
There's a lot, a lot, of people who feel gun shops in NY like all this bullshit they put us through because it lines their pockets.
As for paying to be a member of a forum, maybe if I actually got something of value. This is a gun forum flooded with political crap that has nothing to do with guns. Forums need members, members don't always need forums.
TopShot
.357 mag
Tou-che, my sediments exactly.
Bitching about gun laws are doing nothing but pissing you off.
You want to do something about it.
Don't write to the forum, write to Congess !
Cattafly
.40 S&W
No. You put the price on your burger and that's what I'll pay you or not stay. Ripped off? If you feel that way don't go there. I guess you just don't know how much time and aggravation is involved with what you say is so simple. You ever own or work in a gun shop? If the answer is no then you are the one who expects them to put up with YOUR bullshit. As I said before, don't like it don't go there.
If you don't think there is nothing of value on this forum, nobody is begging you to stay. You actually sound more like a liberal troll than a gun owner.
I'm going to make some suppositions based on what you've written and it's context:
Being "ripped off" is subjective: If you contacted me and asked that I receive a Firearm for transfer, then telling you it'll be $45. to do it then hitting you with more charges/fees after the fact could be construed as being "ripped off" but it might also be that YOU incurred additional charges from your actions.
You've never successfully been in Business for yourself, certainly not the Firearms industry.
What it actually costs one to provide a service cannot be what is charged to provide the Service and expect to earn money, which is the whole point of being in Business, else its a Hobby.
That "20% restocking Fee" is to discourage people from jerking around with buyers remorse. That Gun I ordered for you tied up MY MONEY with inventory that now I'm stuck with until it can be sold or returned to the manufacturer/distributor who is going to charge me for returning it.
That "$100 to sit on the computer" is ignorant and subjective to what's really involved, and it doesn't "cost" $25 to mount a Scope, but what is being charged to perform the work....a concept you seem to want to ignore.
Seems to me you're the quintessential "Fudd" who wants everything for free or cheap, then bitches about how bad the Service is....The Forum being flooded is indicative of what people are concerned with or questioning and in case you hadn't noticed there's this big Blue Button that says FORUMS that offers other subjects, or might I suggest you visit ar15.com and post in "General Discussion" with your views.
Old Jalopy
.45 acp
You'd be wrong on many accounts. I have no problem paying a fair price for a job. There are many fudds on here, but I assure you, I'm not one of them. I'm sorry to feel it's fair to charge someone $100 for some paperwork. I do not, and never will. Which is why I don't sell any firearms unless I have to, and when I did some years back, the buyer and I went to a local shop who charged the legal amount of $10 at that time. I'm sorry you don't feel it's a law when it's plain as day in the text of the original bill for the SAFE Act. I guess the bill that became the law isn't a legally binding law. Not sure how that works.
If it cost $5000 for a car salesman to process your paperwork, or DMV charged $1000 to transfer a title, I'd bet the song would be different.
It has nothing to with being cheap, it has everything to do with fair price for work involved.
I give up, though. It's not worth the effort.
I know of no dealers charging $100. for a Transfer, I have heard of some on Long Island that were well over fifty, but none at $100 because there are Dealers that'll do Handguns for $45 and Long Guns for $35. that's called competition.
The $10. fee for a personal transfer was written long before the Fee for conducting the NICS check was implemented, and IF you find a Dealer that'll do it for the Ten spot then fine, but don't be surprised or feel "ripped off" when he wants another nine bucks to cover what he's charged for running it....unless it's some relation or good buddy, they're not going to be keen on making a Dollar for the amount of effort and paperwork involved.
The Law isn't always "plain as day"...ask any Lawyer, DA, or Judge.
Old Jalopy
.45 acp
There's a bunch of shops around the capital area that charge $100. The problem is, just because it doesn't happen in your area, it doesn't happen at all seem to be the way it goes. I just don't get it. Like I've tried to say, it makes no sense that installing a scope or such is $25 and actually takes some labor. I would have no problem with $19 which I feel is fair. I'd even pay $40 opposed to a Ben Franklin.
Most things in NY are clear as mud. But there are a few that may not be crystal, but they are pretty clear.
Most things in NY are clear as mud. But there are a few that may not be crystal, but they are pretty clear.
I agree with Old Jalopy on some of his points , and especially with the gun shops around the capital region. I’m sorry , but a 25% restocking fee , for a rifle that was pulled off the shelf in the store and put in a box from the back , if I fail a background check is ridiculous. If that gun cost $1k , that store is charging $250 for essentially 10 minutes of time. Even though it’s advertised and you are made aware of it , doesn’t make it right.
Cattafly
.40 S&W
An instance like that is very rare in rural gun shops. Answering questions and doing the actual sale and paperwork take much longer than putting the gun back on the shelf. Used guns are an even longer deal in some shops as they will let you go out and actually test fire the firearm. Case in point: I watched an FFL spend well over two hours explaining and selling two guns for his kids that just passed their hunter safety class. Then Dad got denied after a long wait, days, of being delayed. One of the guns had a customer come back and ask about it. Sorry it was sold, so now lost that sale because of the first guy being denied. 10 minutes of time do not tell the whole story of what goes into a sale. I don't think that policy is ridiculous when the gun buyer most likely knew they would be denied. Happens more than you would reasonably think.
Brawny71
.223 Rem
Not to say SOME aren’t taking advantage, but factor in the loss of affordable insurance, the stuff we have to provide to comply with the BGC, time spent with all you gave an example for, added costs the UnSafe act go around (added security, cameras, video files for two years (even though the assembly only has to do one year), and the rest. It adds up for a small shop. Very easy to go under just trying to stay open. Every “Deal” cuts deep in this state.
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
The government dickheads gotta love it when this kind of issue comes up on a gun forum and people start pointing fingers at everybody but the real culprit, GOVERNMENT, or more to fact, tyranny!
Robin
Robin
I see a few simple solutions: 1) Don't use that FFL if he charges $100. to facilitate a Transfer. 2) Order and Purchase what you want from them (presuming they only charge the NICS Fee for in-store Purchases. 3) Don't tell them you'll take it only to back out later. If you're unsure of the commitment, don't make the offer! 4) Don;t like the Labor Rate, then find another to do the job.
I realize these suggestions that boil down to "find someone else" are an inconvenience, but our democrat controlled Legislature doesn't want you to have guns and thinks Dealers are the problem with illegal guns (and not wanting you to have them) has made it very onerous to have a Shop in NY. I know of three FFL's in NY that that WILL NOT transfer to anyone other than another FFL.
I don’t need a solution. I can clearly see what they charge and for what and it is my(our) choice to pay for their services. My point was that the cost of some of those services do not seem to be justified. Especially the restocking fee for a failed background check seems absolutely absurd. And I know that my situation is not the norm and I’m in the minority but……… I have no arrests and had extensive issues with background checks to the point of going to a congressman to obtain a UPIN because of these ridiculous restocking fees. Absolutely no arrests or run ins with the police but for some reason there were always issues. YMMV
My Point is that's it's up to the Dealer to decide how much they'll charge, and it's not like there are a lot of options. I don't like the fact the Ford Dealer charges anywhere from $150 to $275 an Hour, which does not seem justified so I use a local Shop that under a hundred.
You DO KNOW that the Dealer has to enter the Make, Model, Caliber, and Serial Number of the gun(s) being transferred and that information stays in the NYSP's Database so in the future if that gun comes up again there will be questions. I noticed in a few Shops in the South that they Charge $20. up front to run a NICS Check, but would credit the Sale that amount if passed. Asking why they said "there's people that'll come in knowing they can't pass, but try anyways, and that wastes our time and we have to keep those in a separate file. Don't like the terms, don't do business with them, if it's too far out of line, eventually the Business will fail.
UPIN: I had to apply to be Fingerprinted by the local Police Department, and submit a packet to the FBI...Must be special if the local Congresscritter got it done for you... I hold multiple Licenses issued by the State and Federal Government and well as being Retired from the same: ANY Felony or disqualification would preclude issuance of, and even with all that I am still "delayed" although since running a few checks with the State System it is going faster.
You can contact the FBI and for a small fee ($15. last I looked) they'll run your name and let you know what comes back from your File.
Brawny71
.223 Rem
Wastes their time to run it AND they are automatically charged to run it regardless of the outcome. Never thought I’d miss the FBI; free and less invasive or data collecting.
Not special , I was just persistent. I got so friggin sick of appealing all the denials,( and avoiding the ridiculous to me restocking fees), that I reached out to my local congressman , wrote him a detailed letter , gave him copies and proof of identification, and I swear on my children I had a UPIN in 10 days. It’s usually 10-24 months from what I’m told. FBI , to this day , cannot tell me why I would always get denied. In fact , I used to get denied so often , that every time I wanted to buy a firearm, I would go to the state troopers barracks and get fingerprints done ahead of time so I could do the appeal as expeditiously as possible. My LGS used to call me whenever someone else received a denial so I could tell them how to do it the quickest. And hers another fun fact, I was denied once WITH a fucking UPIN! Gun store I was in had never had that happen! I told them that’s because I’ve never been there before! Anyways, my apologies for derailing this one
TopShot
.357 mag
That's how they are capable of building their auto empires.
They ROB their customers !
I hope they go to church on Sunday to pray for God's forgiveness.
C.B.
I'm going to add one more thing here in hope that it helps someone else understand why transfer fees are going up. In addition to the red tape, which admittedly we have a whole lot less of here in TN is the cost of firearms. Just today I had a new client call (a referral) asking if I could get a Springfield Model 2020 Waypoint for him. Once I found which of my suppliers hade the model in stock and compared prices I went on to PSA the check prices. I found that PSA is selling the same firearm for over $50 less than I can get it from a distributor. Same thing on Suppressors. I've pretty much decided that now I'll just facilitate transfers and special orders. heck, it's not even worth it to buy for myself any longer. I'll have to start buying from PSA and gunbroker.
I'm pretty sure PSA has gotten into the wholesale/Distributor side of the Game given the prices they offer...I've seen it before, where a big retail shop will be on one side of a complex and their distribution center on the other...then you had outfits like Bud's that was simply brokering deals: you'd check with them and the warehouse(s) they were drawing from would show inventory available: order the gun from Bud's, have your FFL sent to theirs and the gun would ship right from the warehouse, so they were making Bank shuffling paperwork and never touching the guns.
FWIW, As a FFL Dealing with Bud's sux. I try to avoid them at all cost. As far as the wholesale/distributor side of things Midway does the same thing but only on certain products and their dealer prices are not that good.