Dude open carrying. nobody freaked out!

[nortatoga]

Day drinking isn't always a bad thing! LOL.

I'm about ready to pop the top on a PBR myself!!

 

[nortatoga]

Oh by the way @SteyrAug ! This is how to have a discussion about differing points of view !!

 

[Doc8404]

Trying some citrusy IPAs from my boss.
Not into IPAs or beer with citrus but the combo makes it alright! That and some sun. Gonna be an early night.

 

[nortatoga]

Trying some citrusy IPAs from my boss.
Not into IPAs or beer with citrus but the combo makes it alright! That and some sun. Gonna be an early night.

Early one for me too! Have to be at a NRA RSO class in the morning.

 

[spat]

Oh by the way @SteyrAug ! This is how to have a discussion about differing points of view !!

If you notice, even though we disagree about this particular point, we also recognize that we agree about far more (people agreeing with one another doesn't tend to make for long discussions though).

None of us are accusing the other of being anything worse than mistaken about a point of law.

It's the difference between an adult discussion, and children squabbling.

 

[spat]

It's a permit to possess and do other things it specifically allows you to do.

Why are you arguing with me? Do it if you think it's legal. Every lawyer that reads it sees it differently than you when they make up guidelines on who can carry openly state by state.

I know what it says and so do you. Do what you think it says if it means a lot to you.

Lawyers giving advice error on the side of caution. Most will just say carry concealed and don't even run the risk of getting hassled, plus it's a tactical advantage.

Really, the only reason to OC is as a political statement. Those same lawyers would advise you not to wear a "molon labe" shirt too, not because it's illegal, but because it can cause some friction, and their whole job is about avoiding friction.

Its the same reason most companies won't ship ammo to NY. Nothing wrong with it, they just don't want to run the risk of having to defend it from the ignorant (or NYS bullies).

 

[GOPerfect]

If you notice, even though we disagree about this particular point, we also recognize that we agree about far more (people agreeing with one another doesn't tend to make for long discussions though).

None of us are accusing the other of being anything worse than mistaken about a point of law.

It's the difference between an adult discussion, and children squabbling.

Even when Will is wrong!

 

[nortatoga]

Even when Will is wrong!

I thought about making that snowball! But you made it and threw it!! LOL!!

 

[SteyrAug]

Time to drop this thread. Clearly none of the chest thumpers will ever test open carry by walking down a city street.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Even when Will is wrong!

Nope. Sorry. I can read english. I'm also good at solving equations. I can read the Penal Law and decipher what's actually written based on the english language even if it doesn't suit my proposes.

You guys like open carry and read one part and say, "See!" without reading the rest of it.

I get it. It's a right and you like it. Unfortunately, a law was written against the 2A in this case no matter if we like it or not. I like many thing too that I cannot do anymore.

And for the record, although I'm not a fan of it, I support open carry.

 

[GOPerfect]

Nope. Sorry. I can read english. I'm also good at solving equations. I can read the Penal Law and decipher what's actually written based on the english language even if it doesn't suit my proposes.

You guys like open carry and read one part and say, "See!" without reading the rest of it.

I get it. It's a right and you like it. Unfortunately, a law was written against the 2A in this case no matter if we like it or not. I like many thing too that I cannot do anymore.

And for the record, although I'm not a fan of it, I support open carry.

Just funning Will, I know where you stand!

 

[nortatoga]

Time to drop this thread. Clearly none of the chest thumpers will ever test open carry by walking down a city street.

Not what this discussion is about!

 

[nortatoga]

Nope. Sorry. I can read english. I'm also good at solving equations. I can read the Penal Law and decipher what's actually written based on the english language even if it doesn't suit my proposes.

You guys like open carry and read one part and say, "See!" without reading the rest of it.

I get it. It's a right and you like it. Unfortunately, a law was written against the 2A in this case no matter if we like it or not. I like many thing too that I cannot do anymore.

And for the record, although I'm not a fan of it, I support open carry.

No Will I don't care for open carry! But knowing what is protected by the 2A and what is wrong?

 

[SteyrAug]

I assume you believe open carry is protected by the 2nd and that overrides any state's regulations ?

Found this on the Open Carry website. Is it incorrect ?

NPL 400.00 describes the types of handgun carry licenses which are available and a license to openly carry a handgun in public is not one of them.

"This case targets the license available under section 400.00(2)(f). That section provides that a license "shall be issued to... have and carry [a firearm] concealed... by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(2)(f). This is the only license available to carry a concealed handgun "without regard to employment or place of possession." Id. Given that New York bans carrying handguns openly, applicants—like Plaintiffs in this case—who desire to carry a handgun outside the home and who do not fit within one of the employment categories must demonstrate proper cause pursuant to section 400.00(2)(f)." Kachalsky v. County of Westchester, 701 F. 3d 81 - Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit (2012) at 86. (emphasis added)

 

[Day444]

I've read the law in regards to carrying a "small arm" openly. I understand a concealed weapon permit is just that, concealed! No where in New York State Law is there any type of authorization for one to carry openly. Still haven't found anywhere that allows LEO's, Rent a Rookie, Armour Car Clowns, gun shop owners to carry in the open. Where does it state any where that you can open carry at or on a range?
For the record, I don't have a problem with open carry or persons that do. When I was a Peace Officer, I open carried in uniform. No longer on the job, I am no longer allowed to do so. It's the law, and I tend to follow the law. (Doesn't imply that I agree with every law, but not breaking a law keeps me out of the cross bar motel.)
My High Caps are also a thing of the past. Carried just short of 60 rounds on a duty belt, now I rarely carry more than ten. Yes, buying new mags really sucked, gave away my high caps to other LEO's. Cost me good money to comply, but why risk my liberty, loss of my weapons and gaining a criminal record? Sorry, I'm not willing to deal with that B.S.
Will there be a day when masses of peaceful gun owners gather at the state house openly carrying handguns? Don't think it's gonna happen any time soon! Nor will there be any individuals who challenge "concealed carry" and go about open carry publicly every day far and wide across NY!

 

[Marine Cpl]

It does for Leo's and military. They get total blanket exemptions. Clowns, Armed Guards, and us normal folk have to carry via license which says concealed.

 

[Uzi]

Not sure why I'd ever want to open carry a handgun. Nobody needs to know that I have a handgun in case shit goes really south until after it's used. Plus since I'm younger and look like I could still be in highschool, people would freak out in a state like new york. Arizona? I'd be fine, but still won't do it.

 

[SteyrAug]

Bravo for last two members.

 

[Day444]

It does for Leo's and military. They get total blanket exemptions. Clowns, Armed Guards, and us normal folk have to carry via license which says concealed.

I'm truly not trying to start a shit storm with you! But would you kindly point me in the right direction to the location of these exemptions in New York Law? It's for my own edification, but I think some others would like to know as well. Even as years as a Peace Officer I couldn't tell you where I could find the exemption that allowed me to open carry.

 

[SteyrAug]

No storm here, glad to see that you actually have the facts straight.

The NY Court has settled it ..... no open carry. While hunters and folks at ranges are tolerated, other open carry is not.

Until someone wants to file a long and expensive lawsuit that's how it is.

Your exemption was buried in various court rulings where those in certain occupations were specifically granted open carry.

I doubt this dead horse will be beaten by OC advocates anymore on this site.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm truly not trying to start a shit storm with you! But would you kindly point me in the right direction to the location of these exemptions in New York Law? It's for my own edification, but I think some others would like to know as well. Even as years as a Peace Officer I couldn't tell you where I could find the exemption that allowed me to open carry.

Just read Penal Law 400 in it's entirety. It gives exemption from prosecution from Penal Law 265. It exempts police and military. When it gets to us it says to have an carry concealed.

Article 400 | NYS Penal Law | Licensing Provisions Firearms

 

[Day444]

No storm here, glad to see that you actually have the facts straight.

Thank you.

The NY Court has settled it ..... no open carry. While hunters and folks at ranges are tolerated, other open carry is not.

Seems a bit strange and begs me to question why some activities and not others? It would seem that if you were hunting or at/on a range it be thought that you had a weapon. I understand the court has ruled no open carry, I don't have an objection to that. It doesn't infringe on my right to bare arms.

Until someone wants to file a long and expensive lawsuit that's how it is.

It's not going to be me!

Your exemption was buried in various court rulings where those in certain occupations were specifically granted open carry.

So I'd have to dig through case law dating back years in order to find anything! Nothing cut and dry!

I doubt this dead horse will be beaten by OC advocates anymore on this site.

I wouldn't be sure about that, seems there is a problem when it comes to understanding the law as it written.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I wouldn't be sure about that, seems there is a problem when it comes to understanding the law as it written.

The big problem is that people want it to mean something so they can do it instead of actually reading what it says word for word.

 

[spat]

I assume you believe open carry is protected by the 2nd and that overrides any state's regulations ?

Found this on the Open Carry website. Is it incorrect ?

NPL 400.00 describes the types of handgun carry licenses which are available and a license to openly carry a handgun in public is not one of them.

"This case targets the license available under section 400.00(2)(f). That section provides that a license "shall be issued to... have and carry [a firearm] concealed... by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." N.Y. Penal Law § 400.00(2)(f). This is the only license available to carry a concealed handgun "without regard to employment or place of possession." Id. Given that New York bans carrying handguns openly, applicants—like Plaintiffs in this case—who desire to carry a handgun outside the home and who do not fit within one of the employment categories must demonstrate proper cause pursuant to section 400.00(2)(f)." Kachalsky v. County of Westchester, 701 F. 3d 81 - Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit (2012) at 86. (emphasis added)

Yep, they're wrong. NY does not ban open carry, they do consider causing alarm by displaying a gun disturbing the peace though. But if you can OC without panicking anyone you are OK.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is cite one case upheld on appeal of a permit holder convicted for OC (and not for brandishing, which is a separate threat not related to PL 265 or PL 400). You can't because it isn't a violation of either of those laws.

A license to carry openly is not available, because it's not necessary (just like every other OC state) if you are legal to possess it, and you can OC without causing a disturbance, you are GTG. That last is the gotcha though.

OC is not banned by any statute. Things that aren't banned are legal, that's how the law works. Possession without a license is illegal, that's the only reason why OC without a license is illegal. If the requirement for a "permit to possess" were ever ruled unconstitutional, then NY would be an OC state like all the rest.

 

[FrankenCub]

I've read the law in regards to carrying a "small arm" openly. I understand a concealed weapon permit is just that, concealed! No where in New York State Law is there any type of authorization for one to carry openly. Still haven't found anywhere that allows LEO's, Rent a Rookie, Armour Car Clowns, gun shop owners to carry in the open. Where does it state any where that you can open carry at or on a range?
For the record, I don't have a problem with open carry or persons that do. When I was a Peace Officer, I open carried in uniform. No longer on the job, I am no longer allowed to do so. It's the law, and I tend to follow the law. (Doesn't imply that I agree with every law, but not breaking a law keeps me out of the cross bar motel.)
My High Caps are also a thing of the past. Carried just short of 60 rounds on a duty belt, now I rarely carry more than ten. Yes, buying new mags really sucked, gave away my high caps to other LEO's. Cost me good money to comply, but why risk my liberty, loss of my weapons and gaining a criminal record? Sorry, I'm not willing to deal with that B.S.
Will there be a day when masses of peaceful gun owners gather at the state house openly carrying handguns? Don't think it's gonna happen any time soon! Nor will there be any individuals who challenge "concealed carry" and go about open carry publicly every day far and wide across NY!

It doesn't need to specifically give authorization as these instances are on private property. Walking my dogs at night I also open carry, private property. I doubt that it's just the county I live in being the reasonable county, both SP and Sheriff Deputies have been here while I was OC, looking for information on someone in the area and when a neighbor had problems of their own and the LEOs stopped to ask us questions about what we might have heard or seen. Not once have any of them even made mention of it. I'm sure if it was an issue one of them would have said something.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yep, they're wrong. NY does not ban open carry, they do consider causing alarm by displaying a gun disturbing the peace though. But if you can OC without panicking anyone you are OK.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is cite one case upheld on appeal of a permit holder convicted for OC (and not for brandishing, which is a separate threat not related to PL 265 or PL 400). You can't because it isn't a violation of either of those laws.

A license to carry openly is not available, because it's not necessary (just like every other OC state) if you are legal to possess it, and you can OC without causing a disturbance, you are GTG. That last is the gotcha though.

OC is not banned by any statute. Things that aren't banned are legal, that's how the law works. Possession without a license is illegal, that's the only reason why OC without a license is illegal. If the requirement for a "permit to possess" were ever ruled unconstitutional, then NY would be an OC state like all the rest.

All wrong regarding the law and already explained to you on why it's easier to just revoke a permit.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It doesn't need to specifically give authorization as these instances are on private property. Walking my dogs at night I also open carry, private property. I doubt that it's just the county I live in being the reasonable county, both SP and Sheriff Deputies have been here while I was OC, looking for information on someone in the area and when a neighbor had problems of their own and the LEOs stopped to ask us questions about what we might have heard or seen. Not once have any of them even made mention of it. I'm sure if it was an issue one of them would have said something.

Private property doesn't exempt anything or else you wouldn't even need a permit to possess on private property.

You guys really need to read the laws. Just because it isn't enforced, it doesn't mean the law isn't there. That's like saying the Safe Act doesn't exist and you can have a muzzle brake on private property because it isn't enforced.

 

[Day444]

I'm trying very hard to follow the mind set with these postings as this mess continues to spin into the shitter. NY law doesn't address open carry and no where does it specifically say one may do so. It does not address open carry on private property, be it ones own or a place of business. Just because an LEO decides not to enforce a law doesn't mean one hasn't been violated. (In this case, what law?) As for exemptions to allow LEO'S and Military to open carry, well nothing is cut and dry. It's not stated that they may. Nothing in the P.L. addresses, security guards, armour car guards, and the like displaying openly. As for the private citizen, there is nothing in the law that allows or prevents it.
Just because one can, doesn't make it right. I'm not willing to test the waters, by openly carrying a weapon when I am allowed to carry it concealed.

 

[Day444]

Would an Open Carry person here please try an experiment? (I'm not willing to do it, nor will I in anyway shape or form help with your legal defense.)
Strap on your side iron, take a walk in the downtown area of Newburgh with your gun openly displayed. How long would it take for Johnny Law to come pay you a visit? I'm sure you'll get a free ride to the station house with some lovely jewelry on your wrists.
Seems most "open carry" folks are doing so in the relative safety of their own property or home. Far from the glancing eye of the law. The attitude of "I can do this because it doesn't say I can't." is really poking the tiger in the cage.

 

[spat]

Private property doesn't exempt anything or else you wouldn't even need a permit to possess on private property.

You guys really need to read the laws. Just because it isn't enforced, it doesn't mean the law isn't there. That's like saying the Safe Act doesn't exist and you can have a muzzle brake on private property because it isn't enforced.

You're saying that the permit only allows you to possess a handgun while carrying it concealed, right ?

So, my guns in my safe are illegal right now ?

When I bring a couple to the range in a case in the back seat, I am also illegal, because I'm not carrying them ?

I say both of those are legal, because it is a permit to possess, and a permit to carry conceald, not a permit to possess only while carried concealed.