Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)

[Jmac00]

Nations do not have the right to tell other nations which alliances they will join.

Russia promised to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons. Turns out an agreement with Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I bet Ukraine really wishes they had those nukes now.

If, as you say, Russia is justified in invading Ukraine to prevent the expansion of NATO, then wouldn't that mean NATO is justified in invading to prevent the spread of Russia ?

Why shouldn't NATO give Putin the Desert Storm treatment ? Shock and Awe his ass all the way back to Moscow ?

mainly because that crazy ass Putin would use small tactical nukes, he simple will refuse to 'lose' to a bunch of untrained farmers
and sending Ukraine a frontline battle tank is a huge mistake. the corruption is so deep, those shitheads will sell them to russia and china for pennies on the dollar.
Personally, I have had it with bidens money laundering schemes, everyone knows what's going on, yet the thieves in congress, from both parties, let this charade continue.

 

[holdover]

Oh, so you mean no one in this thread really knows what's going on over there...gotcha.

nobody in this country knows whats going on over there with any certainty.

Unless your privy to some inside information its pretty hard to ""Know"" . just educated guess'es

 

[ArmedCorgi]

nobody in this country knows whats going on over there with any certainty.

Unless your privy to some inside information its pretty hard to ""Know"" . just educated guess'es

I just find it "odd".

 

[Mosinitis]

Nations do not have the right to tell other nations which alliances they will join.

Russia promised to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons. Turns out an agreement with Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I bet Ukraine really wishes they had those nukes now.

If, as you say, Russia is justified in invading Ukraine to prevent the expansion of NATO, then wouldn't that mean NATO is justified in invading to prevent the spread of Russia ?

Why shouldn't NATO give Putin the Desert Storm treatment ? Shock and Awe his ass all the way back to Moscow ?

Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Soviet Union, thus an inheritor of Soviet nuclear arsenal and nuclear arms treaties made by the Soviet Union. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. After collapse of the Soviet Union, by insistence of Western powers, Soviet nuclear arsenal was transferred to Russian Federation to assure nuclear security and continuation of the treaties.

 

[spat]

Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Soviet Union, thus an inheritor of Soviet nuclear arsenal and nuclear arms treaties made by the Soviet Union. Ukraine has nothing to do with it. After collapse of the Soviet Union, by insistence of Western powers, Soviet nuclear arsenal was transferred to Russian Federation to assure nuclear security and continuation of the treaties.

Ukraine possessed a significant part of the Soviet nuclear arsenal at the end of the cold War.

The Russian Federation can claim whatever it wants, but Ukraine had possession.

They agreed to transfer them to to the Russians in exchange for guarantees of their sovereignty from the Russians, the US, and the UK.

Largely because they couldn't afford to maintain or secure them at the time.

In theory we are obligated to defend them from this invasion because of that agreement.

But, in any case, it was obviously a bad idea. Certainly they never would have been invaded if they still had a few dozen ICBMs.

 

[1341]

At this point nearly a year in, it's a fallacy if you think that the Ukrainian military is a bunch of untrained farmers. Former and active military will have to agree that based on performance so far that they are well trained, well equipped and seemed to be well lead. When you see videos of them in action, uniforms are of a uniform pattern, equipment is correct for the weather conditions, they look well nourished and they certainly look as if morale is positive. The soldiers seemed to have no problem operating Soviet bloc, American, British, French and German weapon systems effectively. They also seem to have no problem taking modern civilian technology (drones, cameras) and adapting it to the battlefield.

 

[GOPerfect]

At this point nearly a year in, it's a fallacy if you think that the Ukrainian military is a bunch of untrained farmers. Former and active military will have to agree that based on performance so far that they are well trained, well equipped and seemed to be well lead. When you see videos of them in action, uniforms are of a uniform pattern, equipment is correct for the weather conditions, they look well nourished and they certainly look as if morale is positive. The soldiers seemed to have no problem operating Soviet bloc, American, British, French and German weapon systems effectively. They also seem to have no problem taking modern civilian technology (drones, cameras) and adapting it to the battlefield.

I can and I will agree to just about everything that you posted. The only part that I might have an issue with is using weapon systems of other nations. The reason I say this, at this point they have not received anything of massive advances in technology. We will see shortly how adaptive they are, once they get the leopard tanks in the Abram tanks. The Bradley's is well is not a simplistic vehicle.

From many of the reports that I have read, and I take all reporting with a grain of salt, their biggest issue is they are running out of people to fight. The Ukraine Army is losing a lot of soldiers. As for being well fed this will only last as long as foreign governments continue to feed them.

Same with ammo to stock all of their weapon systems, I saw a report that ammunition is running very very low. And again I take these reports with a grain of salt, no one seems to want to report the real news in the real numbers anything in this war.

 

[fresch]

Or the spooks do the IT/AI stuff.

 

[spat]

I can and I will agree to just about everything that you posted. The only part that I might have an issue with is using weapon systems of other nations. The reason I say this, at this point they have not received anything of massive advances in technology. We will see shortly how adaptive they are, once they get the leopard tanks in the Abram tanks. The Bradley's is well is not a simplistic vehicle.

From many of the reports that I have read, and I take all reporting with a grain of salt, their biggest issue is they are running out of people to fight. The Ukraine Army is losing a lot of soldiers. As for being well fed this will only last as long as foreign governments continue to feed them.

Same with ammo to stock all of their weapon systems, I saw a report that ammunition is running very very low. And again I take these reports with a grain of salt, no one seems to want to report the real news in the real numbers anything in this war.

To be fair, modern farmers are used to operating very complex equipment too.

These aren't old bumpkins farming with an old WD45 and a manually operated plow. They are used to GPS guided planting equipment and so forth.

Training on a complex weapon system may not be difficult for them.

And that would be the new recruits. The original military have been training with NATO nations for years.

 

[GOPerfect]

To be fair, modern farmers are used to operating very complex equipment too.

These aren't old bumpkins farming with an old WD45 and a manually operated plow. They are used to GPS guided planting equipment and so forth.

Training on a complex weapon system may not be difficult for them.

And that would be the new recruits. The original military have been training with NATO nations for years.

Possibly. Like I stated earlier in this thread, years ago, I trained on much of this equipment. Not as simple as some think.

Maybe they will fast learner's. Maybe. These tanks are very involved. Maybe it will work for them quickly, maybe not.

 

[Mosinitis]

Possibly. Like I stated earlier in this thread, years ago, I trained on much of this equipment. Not as simple as some think.

Maybe they will fast learner's. Maybe. These tanks are very involved. Maybe it will work for them quickly, maybe not.

I understand your point and I don't disagree. The problem is Ukrainian troops are being trained in Europe for 6-9 month now and it's not basic training. They were already trained soldiers going in. It's possible they were being trained on Western tanks, knowing NATO's goal to prolong this war as much as possible.

 

[GOPerfect]

Absolutely. And that's why I said possibly. A friend of mine went to the Ukraine 3 years ago, to train them on a bunch of different artillery systems. He was deployed there for just under a year. He never told me exactly what they were training on, but I do know my bud Westfield artillery, so I just put two and two together.

There are a bunch of Ukraine soldiers training here in the states is well on different Air defense artillery systems. So yeah it is possible that they will be ready when this equipment shows up.

derstand your point and I don't disagree. The problem is Ukrainian troops are being trained in Europe for 6-9 month now and it's not basic training. They were already trained soldiers going in. It's possible they were being trained on Western tanks, knowing NATO's goal to prolong this war as much as possible.

 

[holdover]

I just find it "odd".

What??

 

[Mosinitis]

Ukraine possessed a significant part of the Soviet nuclear arsenal at the end of the cold War.

The Russian Federation can claim whatever it wants, but Ukraine had possession.

They agreed to transfer them to to the Russians in exchange for guarantees of their sovereignty from the Russians, the US, and the UK.

Largely because they couldn't afford to maintain or secure them at the time.

In theory we are obligated to defend them from this invasion because of that agreement.

But, in any case, it was obviously a bad idea. Certainly they never would have been invaded if they still had a few dozen ICBMs.

Nuclear arsenal in what was Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was aimed at NATO, not Russia. U.S. actually agreed to pay the expense of dismentaling and transporting it out of Ukraine. Ukraine didn't object because RUSSIA agreed to use its nuclear arsenal if there was a nuclear attack by NATO on Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia were members of the same alliance at the time, so nuclear war between them wasn't in the realm of any agreements.

 

[holdover]

If People think that those western tanks are a game changer. The HIMARS was supposed to be a game changer too. they dont understand the battlefield that they will be operating in.

those tanks, and tankers were designed and taught to follow a doctrine of combined arms operations . US forces in Iraq absolutely smashed the shit out of Iraqi armor , one of reasons was because the air power smashed the shit out of the Iraqi air power, command and control ,radars artillery and ammo stores. Before the Abrams (or as some call it Abraham's ) ever engaged them. Thats the way it was designed to work and it worked like a champ.

The western tanks will be facing an enemy that has local air superiority, which means they will be facing helicopters , jet planes and possibly heavy bombers and heavy artillery . they will be facing enemy infantry in the woods and citys with effective anti armor missiles. they will be facing an enemy that isnt blind.

They have no air cover and they are out numbered. Effectively , its a battalion vs the entire Russian army

remember the German tiger tank in Russia? rounds would just bounce off the front of the tank , they would blow the turrent off a T34 at 2000 yards . But there wasnt enough of them to change the battle or the course of the war . The Russians attacked them from 3 sides and one of them would get a kill . Ie they worked around it . This is similar .

The Abrams is probably the best tank in the world , 2nd to none. but if you dont use them right , its a lot of expensive scrap metal

Its a combined arms team. it works like a football or hockey team , everyone has to be on the same page. I dont care how good your quarter back is , if you put him in the game by himself , and no players, he is going to get the shit kicked out of him

they have to learn how to move using overwatch, bounding overwatch, how to react to enemy fire , call in fire , they have to know where the other players are without seeing them .

The Americans and German and British people are going to get an eye opening lesson on modern warfare . and they are going to look at the pictures with their jaw dropped , saying what the hell happened.

 

[spat]

Nuclear arsenal in what was Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic was aimed at NATO, not Russia. U.S. actually agreed to pay the expense of dismentaling and transporting it out of Ukraine. Ukraine didn't object because RUSSIA agreed to use its nuclear arsenal if there was a nuclear attack by NATO on Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia were members of the same alliance at the time, so nuclear war between them wasn't in the realm of any agreements.

The US interest was that we were concerned Ukraine wouldn't be able to keep them secure.

We were concerned they might be stolen, or disappear.

But, that doesn't change the fact that I bet Ukraine wishes they'd never taken that deal now.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

If People think that those western tanks are a game changer. The HIMARS was supposed to be a game changer too. they dont understand the battlefield that they will be operating in.

those tanks, and tankers were designed and taught to follow a doctrine of combined arms operations . US forces in Iraq absolutely smashed the shit out of Iraqi armor , one of reasons was because the air power smashed the shit out of the Iraqi air power, command and control ,radars artillery and ammo stores. Before the Abrams (or as some call it Abraham's ) ever engaged them. Thats the way it was designed to work and it worked like a champ.

The western tanks will be facing an enemy that has local air superiority, which means they will be facing helicopters , jet planes and possibly heavy bombers and heavy artillery . they will be facing enemy infantry in the woods and citys with effective anti armor missiles. they will be facing an enemy that isnt blind.

They have no air cover and they are out numbered. Effectively , its a battalion vs the entire Russian army

remember the German tiger tank in Russia? rounds would just bounce off the front of the tank , they would blow the turrent off a T34 at 2000 yards . But there wasnt enough of them to change the battle or the course of the war . The Russians attacked them from 3 sides and one of them would get a kill . Ie they worked around it . This is similar .

The Abrams is probably the best tank in the world , 2nd to none. but if you dont use them right , its a lot of expensive scrap metal

Its a combined arms team. it works like a football or hockey team , everyone has to be on the same page. I dont care how good your quarter back is , if you put him in the game by himself , and no players, he is going to get the shit kicked out of him

they have to learn how to move using overwatch, bounding overwatch, how to react to enemy fire , call in fire , they have to know where the other players are without seeing them .

The Americans and German and British people are going to get an eye opening lesson on modern warfare . and they are going to look at the pictures with their jaw dropped , saying what the hell happened.

The WW2 eastern front analogies are eerily similar to what it was in 1943 and 1944.

 

[holdover]

The WW2 eastern front analogies are eerily similar to what it was in 1943 and 1944.

Yup. watch what happens to those awesome German Leopards.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Yup. watch what happens to those awesome German Leopards.

They might have a 5:1 kill ratio just like panthers to t34 but in the end it won't matter.

 

[Mosinitis]

The US interest was that we were concerned Ukraine wouldn't be able to keep them secure.

We were concerned they might be stolen, or disappear.

But, that doesn't change the fact that I bet Ukraine wishes they'd never taken that deal now.

Nobody really asked them. It wasn't their decision, nor did they believe at the time that these nukes belonged to them.

 

[holdover]

They might have a 5:1 kill ratio just like panthers to t34 but in the end it won't matter.

Exactly.

 

[holdover]

10 Turkish Leopard 2 tanks destroyed in one battle in Syria by fucking Jihadis last summer

The Turkish Second Armored Brigade, which took part in the Al Bab operation, lost about 10 Leopard 2 tanks to the jihadists who were protecting the area. However, it is believed, according to unconfirmed information, that two Turkish Leopard-2A4 tanks were also captured in almost excellent condition and were destroyed by air raids later. The exact circumstances that led to the destruction of all the tanks are still unknown, but the Turkish tanks went largely unprotected by infantry and did not make the slightest effort to cover their sides against the town where the enemy forces were located, something that certainly indicates a serious tactical error. The specific mistakes in the handling of the Leopard-2A4 by the Turkish armored command can be seen in several videos published by the terrorists during the battle of Al-Bab.



Source: Battle of Al-Bab: The destruction of Turkish Leopard-2a4 tanks | GEOPOLITIKI










Even superman had cryptonyte.

 

[Acer-m14]

U.S. Tanks In Ukraine Already Destroyed After Being Easily Recognized By Their Rainbow Camouflage "These tanks are state of the art, boasting the latest and greatest in firepower, mobility, and of course LGBTQ-affirming camouflage," said Biden's Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin.

 

[prambo]

The Most Egregious Mistake | ZeroHedge

"What then is this ‘Great Surprise’ – the almost completely unforeseen event of recent geo-politics that has so shaken U.S. expectations, and which takes the world to the precipice?

It is, in a word, Resilience.

The Resilience displayed by the Russian economy after the West had committed the entire weight of its financial resources to crushing Russia. The West bore down on Russia in every conceivable way – via financial, cultural and psychological war – and with real military war as the follow-through.

Yet, Russia has survived, and survived relatively handsomely. It is doing ‘okay’ – maybe better, even, than many Russia insiders were expecting. The ‘Anglo’ Intelligence services however, had assured EU leaders not to worry; it’s ‘slam dunk’; Putin cannot possibly survive. Rapid financial and political collapse, they promised, was certain under the tsunami of western sanctions."

'Anglo' intelligence services = congenital, compulsive and pathological liars.

 

[prambo]

World War III: Has It Begun? - Daily Reckoning

"So the case for fuzzy beginnings and endings of wars is clear. What’s the case for saying World War III has already begun based on the situation in Ukraine?

The first point is the number of nations directly involved. It’s nonsense to say that NATO members are cheering on Ukraine from the sidelines. Those countries are directly involved in supplying weapons, intelligence, money, ammunition and boots on the ground."

 

[MothMan]

The Most Egregious Mistake | ZeroHedge

"What then is this ‘Great Surprise’ – the almost completely unforeseen event of recent geo-politics that has so shaken U.S. expectations, and which takes the world to the precipice?

It is, in a word, Resilience.

The Resilience displayed by the Russian economy after the West had committed the entire weight of its financial resources to crushing Russia. The West bore down on Russia in every conceivable way – via financial, cultural and psychological war – and with real military war as the follow-through.

Yet, Russia has survived, and survived relatively handsomely. It is doing ‘okay’ – maybe better, even, than many Russia insiders were expecting. The ‘Anglo’ Intelligence services however, had assured EU leaders not to worry; it’s ‘slam dunk’; Putin cannot possibly survive. Rapid financial and political collapse, they promised, was certain under the tsunami of western sanctions."

'Anglo' intelligence services = congenital, compulsive and pathological liars.

Good read!

Word of the day fissiparous.

 

[holdover]

The Most Egregious Mistake | ZeroHedge

"What then is this ‘Great Surprise’ – the almost completely unforeseen event of recent geo-politics that has so shaken U.S. expectations, and which takes the world to the precipice?

It is, in a word, Resilience.

The Resilience displayed by the Russian economy after the West had committed the entire weight of its financial resources to crushing Russia. The West bore down on Russia in every conceivable way – via financial, cultural and psychological war – and with real military war as the follow-through.

Yet, Russia has survived, and survived relatively handsomely. It is doing ‘okay’ – maybe better, even, than many Russia insiders were expecting. The ‘Anglo’ Intelligence services however, had assured EU leaders not to worry; it’s ‘slam dunk’; Putin cannot possibly survive. Rapid financial and political collapse, they promised, was certain under the tsunami of western sanctions."

'Anglo' intelligence services = congenital, compulsive and pathological liars.

Russia survived from 1945 to 1990 without the west. It may not be easy , but they know how to do it.

 

[holdover]

 

[GOPerfect]

Is Israel bombing Iran?

 

[spat]

Russia survived from 1945 to 1990 without the west. It may not be easy , but they know how to do it.

The Soviet Union survived that long without the west.

It was a lot larger than Russia.

And it did ultimately collapse from within.