holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Link no work.
Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)
- Thread starter holdover
- Start date
prambo
.475 A&M Magnum
Chris Hedges: They Lied About Afghanistan. They Lied About Iraq. And They Are Lying About Ukraine. - scheerpost.com
"The playbook the pimps of war use to lure us into one military fiasco after another, including Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine, does not change. Freedom and democracy are threatened. Evil must be vanquished. Human rights must be protected. The fate of Europe and NATO, along with a “rules based international order” is at stake. Victory is assured.
The results are also the same. The justifications and narratives are exposed as lies. The cheery prognosis is false. Those on whose behalf we are supposedly fighting are as venal as those we are fighting against."
"The playbook the pimps of war use to lure us into one military fiasco after another, including Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine, does not change. Freedom and democracy are threatened. Evil must be vanquished. Human rights must be protected. The fate of Europe and NATO, along with a “rules based international order” is at stake. Victory is assured.
The results are also the same. The justifications and narratives are exposed as lies. The cheery prognosis is false. Those on whose behalf we are supposedly fighting are as venal as those we are fighting against."
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
It works on my tablet
I will say this. I have since the beginning sided with Putin, Russia and their reasons behind the invasion. I still support the same. The Ukraine is dirty. So much illegal shit going on in that Country. Russia will "Win", as long as the World does not lose. Once the dust settles, the real truths will come out. The Biolabs. The genocide in Ukraine. The child trafficking that is taking place. Ever wonder why so many Hollywood "Elites" are going there to show their support?
I hate the senseless killing that is going on, horrible; especially for the pure innocent loss of life.
I hate the senseless killing that is going on, horrible; especially for the pure innocent loss of life.
prambo
.475 A&M Magnum
@Acer-m14
I'll bet you could section off (or intentionally divide) this shit-hole country along the following lines...
1) Believe that the fUSA ia a "democracy...
---have at least 2 "death jabs" and most likely more
---have their young children poisoned by the "death jabs"
---many still wear a mask (or 5)
---COVID has a "natural origin"
---it's better to die while intubated and on Remdisavir than try one of 2 extremely safe medications with proven track records
---total "froth-at-the mouth" DemonRats
---still have a Ukie flag somewhere
---believe the Russian's started it and the Ukes are winning
---probably have the newest "Mentally Ill Pride" flag (the one with the "shit brown" section)
---pathological hate of Trump
---"celebrate" diversity, even in their investing
---etc, etc, etc, ad infinitun, ad nauseum
2) Know that the fUSA used to be a "constitutional republic"...
I'll bet you could section off (or intentionally divide) this shit-hole country along the following lines...
1) Believe that the fUSA ia a "democracy...
---have at least 2 "death jabs" and most likely more
---have their young children poisoned by the "death jabs"
---many still wear a mask (or 5)
---COVID has a "natural origin"
---it's better to die while intubated and on Remdisavir than try one of 2 extremely safe medications with proven track records
---total "froth-at-the mouth" DemonRats
---still have a Ukie flag somewhere
---believe the Russian's started it and the Ukes are winning
---probably have the newest "Mentally Ill Pride" flag (the one with the "shit brown" section)
---pathological hate of Trump
---"celebrate" diversity, even in their investing
---etc, etc, etc, ad infinitun, ad nauseum
2) Know that the fUSA used to be a "constitutional republic"...
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Absolute nonsense based on your your own uninformed opinion.
Im going to state some facts from which I draw my conclusions
Washington D.C., – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”
President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]
The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3]
the reunification of Germany on 3 October 1990, Berlin was reinstated as the capital city of united Germany (20 June 1991) and the Länder of the former German Democratic Republic joined the Federal Republic of Germany, thereby becoming a member of NATO.
1991 Ukraine gains Independence
1991 the Soviet Union dissolves
28 September 1995: Publication of NATO Study on Enlargement. 8-9 July 1997: At the Madrid Summit, three partner countries – Czechia, Hungary and Poland – are invited to start accession talks. 12 March 1999: Accession of Czechia, Hungary and Poland, bringing the Alliance to 19 members.
2004 - The second wave of post-Cold War enlargement
The flags of all NATO Allies are paraded in front of NATO Headquarters in Brussels in April 2004 during the flag-raising ceremony marking the accession of :
Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia.
Croatia joins NATO 2009.
Albania joins NATO 2009
Montenegro Joins NATO 2017
Finland joins NATO 2023
“not one inch eastward”
ukraine neutrality agreement The declaration also proclaimed that the republic has intent to become in a future "a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs," and that it would not accept, nor produce, nor procure nuclear weapons.
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
IX. External and Internal Security
The Ukrainian SSR has the right to its own armed forces.
The Ukrainian SSR has its own internal armies and bodies of state security subordinated to the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR determines procedures for military service by citizens of the Republic.
Citizens of the Ukrainian SSR perform their military service, as a rule, on the territory of the Republic, and cannot be used for military purpose beyond its borders without the consent of the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles: to accept, to produce and to purchase no nuclear weapons.
The Declaration is the basis for a new constitution and laws of Ukraine and determines the positions of the Republic for the purpose of international agreements.
The principles of the Declaration of the Sovereignty of Ukraine are used for preparation of a new union agreement.
Passed by the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
Kyiv, July 16, 1990
#55-XII
Kyiv, July 16, 1990
#55-XII
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
static.rada.gov.ua
In 2014, There was a military coup with the aim of making Ukraine a member of NATO. The military coup was carried out by forces completely in line with the US and NATO. This coup was not supported or joined by all regions of Ukraine. The eastern parts of the country rebelled and rejected to support the nationalist force established by the coup. Afterwards, they declared ther independence.
Donbass and Luhansk regions broke away from Ukraine. they did not recognize the new Western backed government.
Article 138 of the Ukrainian constitution - "The competence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea comprises: 1) designating elections of deputies to the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea... 2) organising and conducting local referendums.
After the Maiden revolution in Ukraine in 2014, the Crimea voted to break away from Ukraine and join the Russian federation.
Russia mobilized its troops in February and March 2014 to seize control of Crimea.
2014 The Azov Assault Brigade (Ukrainian: [7] It was founded in May 2014 as the Azov Battalion[a] (Ukrainian: батальйон «Азов», romanized: Batalion "Azov"), a volunteer paramilitary militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky to fight pro-Russian forces in the war in Donbas.
The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian separatist groups and Armed Forces of Ukraine,
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit. “It also used this time to become stronger, as you can see today.”
All the more remarkable is her admission that the Minsk agreement served to buy time for Ukraine’s rearmament. “It was clear to all of us that this was a frozen conflict, that the problem had not been solved, but that is precisely what gave Ukraine valuable time,” Merkel told Die Zeit.
Russia, fearing for its Black Sea fleet base in Sevastopol, annexed Crimea with the help of a referendum. Russian-backed separatists proclaimed independent republics in Donetsk and Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.
The new rulers in Kiev were unable to prevent this. The Ukrainian army had fallen apart. Soldiers unwilling to sacrifice themselves for the new regime had deserted en masse.
Under these circumstances, Merkel and Hollande organized the Minsk agreement—as Merkel now admits—to freeze the conflict and buy time. The agreement included a cease-fire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons, and the establishment of a security zone, monitored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The Ukrainian government pledged to amend the constitution to allow special status for Donetsk and Luhansk and grant them greater autonomy.
Hardly any of this was ever implemented. In particular, the Ukrainian side boycotted all agreements. It did not want a negotiated settlement. Lacking soldiers ready to fight, the newly installed President Petro Poroshenko mobilized the Azov battalion and other fascist militias, which the billionaire oligarch partly financed from his own assets.
NATO used the “valuable time” (Merkel) gained by this terror to rebuild, arm to the teeth, and train the Ukrainian armed forces. For example, according to a British parliamentary report, the British Army has trained and equipped Ukrainian soldiers since 2014. Ukraine has not formally become part of NATO but is doing so in practice.
Russia’s decision to take military action against Ukraine was the predictable—and intended—reaction to this NATO offensive.
These are some of the Facts which lead me to support Russia . Ill post my opinion based upon those facts in my next post.
Last edited:
spat
.950 JDJ
And that justifies invading a sovereign neighbor ?Absolute nonsense based on your your own uninformed opinion.
Im going to state some facts from which I draw my conclusions
Washington D.C., – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).
The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”
President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]
The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3]
the reunification of Germany on 3 October 1990, Berlin was reinstated as the capital city of united Germany (20 June 1991) and the Länder of the former German Democratic Republic joined the Federal Republic of Germany, thereby becoming a member of NATO.
1991 Ukraine gains Independence
1991 the Soviet Union dissolves
28 September 1995: Publication of NATO Study on Enlargement. 8-9 July 1997: At the Madrid Summit, three partner countries – Czechia, Hungary and Poland – are invited to start accession talks. 12 March 1999: Accession of Czechia, Hungary and Poland, bringing the Alliance to 19 members.
2004 - The second wave of post-Cold War enlargement
The flags of all NATO Allies are paraded in front of NATO Headquarters in Brussels in April 2004 during the flag-raising ceremony marking the accession of :
Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia.
Croatia joins NATO 2009.
Albania joins NATO 2009
Montenegro Joins NATO 2017
Finland joins NATO 2023
“not one inch eastward”
ukraine neutrality agreement The declaration also proclaimed that the republic has intent to become in a future "a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs," and that it would not accept, nor produce, nor procure nuclear weapons.
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
IX. External and Internal Security
The Ukrainian SSR has the right to its own armed forces.
The Ukrainian SSR has its own internal armies and bodies of state security subordinated to the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR determines procedures for military service by citizens of the Republic.
Citizens of the Ukrainian SSR perform their military service, as a rule, on the territory of the Republic, and cannot be used for military purpose beyond its borders without the consent of the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian SSR.
The Ukrainian SSR solemnly declares its intention of becoming a permanently neutral state that does not participate in military blocs and adheres to three nuclear free principles: to accept, to produce and to purchase no nuclear weapons.
The Declaration is the basis for a new constitution and laws of Ukraine and determines the positions of the Republic for the purpose of international agreements.
The principles of the Declaration of the Sovereignty of Ukraine are used for preparation of a new union agreement.
Passed by the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
Kyiv, July 16, 1990
#55-XII
Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine
In 2014, There was a military coup with the aim of making Ukraine a member of NATO. The military coup was carried out by forces completely in line with the US and NATO. This coup was not supported or joined by all regions of Ukraine. The eastern parts of the country rebelled and rejected to support the nationalist force established by the coup. Afterwards, they declared ther independence.
Donbass and Luhansk regions broke away from Ukraine. they did not recognize the new Western backed government.
Article 138 of the Ukrainian constitution - "The competence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea comprises: 1) designating elections of deputies to the Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea... 2) organising and conducting local referendums.
After the Maiden revolution in Ukraine in 2014, the Crimea voted to break away from Ukraine and join the Russian federation.
Russia mobilized its troops in February and March 2014 to seize control of Crimea.
2014 The Azov Assault Brigade (Ukrainian: [7] It was founded in May 2014 as the Azov Battalion[a] (Ukrainian: батальйон «Азов», romanized: Batalion "Azov"), a volunteer paramilitary militia under the command of Andriy Biletsky to fight pro-Russian forces in the war in Donbas.
The Minsk agreements were a series of international agreements which sought to end the Donbas war fought between armed Russian separatist groups and Armed Forces of Ukraine,
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
According to former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the Minsk agreement served to buy time to rearm Ukraine. “The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time,” Merkel told the weekly Die Zeit. “It also used this time to become stronger, as you can see today.”
All the more remarkable is her admission that the Minsk agreement served to buy time for Ukraine’s rearmament. “It was clear to all of us that this was a frozen conflict, that the problem had not been solved, but that is precisely what gave Ukraine valuable time,” Merkel told Die Zeit.
Russia, fearing for its Black Sea fleet base in Sevastopol, annexed Crimea with the help of a referendum. Russian-backed separatists proclaimed independent republics in Donetsk and Luhansk in eastern Ukraine.
The new rulers in Kiev were unable to prevent this. The Ukrainian army had fallen apart. Soldiers unwilling to sacrifice themselves for the new regime had deserted en masse.
Under these circumstances, Merkel and Hollande organized the Minsk agreement—as Merkel now admits—to freeze the conflict and buy time. The agreement included a cease-fire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons, and the establishment of a security zone, monitored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The Ukrainian government pledged to amend the constitution to allow special status for Donetsk and Luhansk and grant them greater autonomy.
Hardly any of this was ever implemented. In particular, the Ukrainian side boycotted all agreements. It did not want a negotiated settlement. Lacking soldiers ready to fight, the newly installed President Petro Poroshenko mobilized the Azov battalion and other fascist militias, which the billionaire oligarch partly financed from his own assets.
NATO used the “valuable time” (Merkel) gained by this terror to rebuild, arm to the teeth, and train the Ukrainian armed forces. For example, according to a British parliamentary report, the British Army has trained and equipped Ukrainian soldiers since 2014. Ukraine has not formally become part of NATO but is doing so in practice.
Russia’s decision to take military action against Ukraine was the predictable—and intended—reaction to this NATO offensive.
These are some of the Facts which lead me to support Russia . Ill post my opinion based upon those facts in my next post.
So, we should just annex Cuba now that the Chinese are building stuff there ?
Or should we look at this as the Russians expanding westward, and invade Ukraine ourselves?
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You have absolutely no idea of what I am informed of. But a few more paragraphs of globularity should bolster your stance.
Robin
Robin
At some point Russians figured out this was incremental dismantling of their country. Little steps, which in their totality constitute an aggression.
When Western leaders were romancing Gorbachev, did they tell him this will lead to CIA/NATO directing attacks on Moscow while sitting in Kiev with their hand picked puppet.
spat
.950 JDJ
The problem is that the Russians have some delusion that the former Soviet satellites owe them something.
In reality, it's the other way around.
All the "agreements" you are complaining about are 30 years ago, and were about Ukraine giving up their significant nuclear stockpile.
Turns out that was a bad idea.
How long do you think Russia should have been able to dictate to Ukraine who it's friends can be ? 50 years, 100 ?
Yes Russians have a delusion that agreements bind both sides and the same standards apply to all countries.
spat
.950 JDJ
So, how long should Russia get to dictate who Ukraine can be friends with ?
Forever ?
It's been 30 years.
Let's not kid ourselves that Russia is some altruistic holier than thou country.
Like every other country they are looking out for number 1.
And by no means am I using the US as an example of a country with integrity that stands by it's word. We've abominated just about every single agreement we've ever signed as soon as it was convenient or self serving to do so.
All countries do it, some are just worse at it that others.
There are very few countries out there who put their word, honor and integrity above national interests.
For as long as there is NATO at the least.
One country believes in its hegemony, the other doesn't.
prambo
.475 A&M Magnum
Will this thread rival the COVID thread in length?
Will "droplets" and N100 masks be made available?
Will the borderline antipathy and ceaselessly circular arguments continue?
Who's right?
Who's wrong?
The fUSA, other than conducting metric shit-tons of corruption and illicit bio-weapons research in Ukie-Land, had absolutely no skin in the game...at the start.
Now "we" ("What you mean "we" white-man?" said Tonto) are involved...well, at least the retards running fUSA.Gov are "involved'.
But, if it goes "hot" young Americans (worthless POS or not) will die.
No pols will die...they'll just keep accumulating power and $$$$$.
I'm betting on the re-institution of "the draft" - my grandson is very close to that age.
He WILL NOT go and die for this corrupt shit-heel banana republic.
WWII came extremely close to getting my Father...Vietnam tried hard for 4 months, but didn't get me.
If you really, really, really think the fUSA should be involved...
Man up, my niggas!!!
Get your sorry ass on a motherfucking airplane and go fight for the Ukies, or the Russkies, or Wagner.
Put some skin in the game, other than the tax $$$$ you've had stolen from you.
Will "droplets" and N100 masks be made available?
Will the borderline antipathy and ceaselessly circular arguments continue?
Who's right?
Who's wrong?
The fUSA, other than conducting metric shit-tons of corruption and illicit bio-weapons research in Ukie-Land, had absolutely no skin in the game...at the start.
Now "we" ("What you mean "we" white-man?" said Tonto) are involved...well, at least the retards running fUSA.Gov are "involved'.
But, if it goes "hot" young Americans (worthless POS or not) will die.
No pols will die...they'll just keep accumulating power and $$$$$.
I'm betting on the re-institution of "the draft" - my grandson is very close to that age.
He WILL NOT go and die for this corrupt shit-heel banana republic.
WWII came extremely close to getting my Father...Vietnam tried hard for 4 months, but didn't get me.
If you really, really, really think the fUSA should be involved...
Man up, my niggas!!!
Get your sorry ass on a motherfucking airplane and go fight for the Ukies, or the Russkies, or Wagner.
Put some skin in the game, other than the tax $$$$ you've had stolen from you.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Why I ""gleefully support that murderous bastard Putin.""
The Naval base at Sevastopol is of vital strategic national security interest to the Russians . It is the HQ of the entire black sea fleet . The southern flank of Russia. Loss of the base would be catastrophic to Russian defense plans. Further more, that base would eventually be turned over to NATO . the Russians were compelled to act or lose the entire black sea , and their southern flank .
Judging by your ignorant answers, it aint much. But if you want to enlighten the class with your facts , by all means , but you wont. Because you dont have any .
That""globularity"" is historical record. You would know that if you were ""Informed"" or payed attention .
All I can say is judging from your answers is that your talking out of your ass.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Any threat to your borders are justifiable .
spat
.950 JDJ
The only border that has been threatened is the Ukranian one.
You do not get to invade your neighbors and then claim that you were afraid they were going to invade you first LOL.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Friends? 0. Russia never said a word when Ukraine joined the EU. Russia warned Ukraine and the west for 30 years they would not tolerate NATO in Ukraine, it was a red line that means war. They applied for NATO status anyway.
NATO could also have avoided the war by saying no.
Ukraine has the rights of any other sovereign country to join NATO . And now they have to live with the consequences of their actions .
Cri-me-a river.
You think the west and John Mc Cain was arming and training them for no reason?
Merkel confirms that NATO wanted war from the start but needed time to prepare militarily.
My God man, You cant be that stupid.
SEC. 2. SENSE OF CONGRESS ON BLACK SEA SECURITY.
(a) Sense Of Congress.—It is the sense of Congress that—
(1) it is in the interest of the United States to support efforts to prevent the spread of further armed conflict in Europe by recognizing the Black Sea region as an arena of Russian aggression;
(2) littoral states of the Black Sea are critical in countering aggression by the Government of the Russian Federation and contributing to the collective security of NATO;
(3) the repeated, illegal, unprovoked, and violent attempts of the Russian Federation to expand its territory and control access to the Mediterranean Sea through the Black Sea constitutes a threat to the national security of the United States and NATO;
(4) the United States condemns attempts by the Russian Federation to change or alter boundaries in the Black Sea region by force or any means contrary to international law and to impose a sphere of influence across the region;
(5) the United States and its allies should robustly counter Russia’s illegitimate territorial claims on the Crimean Peninsula, along Ukraine's territorial waters in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov, in the Black Sea's international waters, and in the territories it is illegally occupying in Ukraine;
(6) the United States should continue to work within NATO and with NATO Allies to develop a long-term strategy to enhance security, establish a permanent, sustainable presence along NATO's eastern flank, and bolster the democratic resilience of its allies and partners in the region;
(7) the United States should work within NATO and with NATO Allies to develop a regular, rotational maritime presence in the Black Sea;
(8) the United States should also work with the European Union on coordinating a strategy to support democratic initiatives and economic prosperity in the region, which includes two European Union members and four European Union aspirant nations;
(9) Turkey's behavior towards some regional allies and democratic states has been counterproductive and has contributed to increased tensions in the region, and Turkey should avoid any actions to further escalate regional tensions;
(10) the United States should work to foster dialogue among countries within the Black Sea region to improve communication and intelligence sharing and increase cyber defense capabilities;
(11) countries with historic and economic ties to Russia are looking to the United States and Europe to provide a positive economic presence in the broader region as a counterbalance to the Russian Federation’s malign influence in the region;
(12) it is in the interest of the United States to support and bolster the economic ties between the United States and Black Sea states;
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Not true at all. so I cant shoot if someone is pointing a gun at me? Holy shit man this is quintessential self defense .
spat
.950 JDJ
Are you seriously claiming that Ukraine was preparing to invade Russia ?
You do not get to shoot your neighbor because he is hunting in his own back yard and your paranoia leads you to think he *might* be *thinking* of hunting in yours.
It doesn't matter how long or how many times you have told him to stop, because *you have no right to tell him to stop to begin with*
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Some of you guys really surprise me. You cant see the chess board from the other side .
Lets say the Soviet union won the cold war and all of Europe was under its flag , Now after promising not one inch west ward the Soviet union wants to admit Canada and Mexico into the Bloc. You would not interpret a threat knowing that the entire Northern and southern border will soon be filled with armys from the east?
If Hawaii voted to join the USSR , do you think that Losing Pearl Harbor would not be of vital strategic interest? Just hand over Pearl Harbor to the Russians and give up Your Naval base ? No strategic value worth fighting for?
During ther Cuban missile crisis , the US was ready willing and able to start a nuclear war if the Soviets didnt pull missles out of cuba.
Lets say the Soviet union won the cold war and all of Europe was under its flag , Now after promising not one inch west ward the Soviet union wants to admit Canada and Mexico into the Bloc. You would not interpret a threat knowing that the entire Northern and southern border will soon be filled with armys from the east?
If Hawaii voted to join the USSR , do you think that Losing Pearl Harbor would not be of vital strategic interest? Just hand over Pearl Harbor to the Russians and give up Your Naval base ? No strategic value worth fighting for?
During ther Cuban missile crisis , the US was ready willing and able to start a nuclear war if the Soviets didnt pull missles out of cuba.
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holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Ukraine was fighting in the Donbass and preparing to invade Crimea to take back the jewel at Sevastopol.
The Russians annexed it , so technically , yes in a limited way . And they had the army to do it . The Russian army and economy was thought to be much weaker than it turned out to be .
spat
.950 JDJ
So, the Russians invaded part of the Ukraine, and the Ukraine preparing to defend it is justification for the Russians invading.
Wow.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Paranoia? Thats a good one . without question if the Russians did not act the entire Black sea fleet would be gone and occupied by NATO Navel vessels 600 yards off the coast of Russia.
Of course you have every right to say that this move would threaten the national security of Russia and would put us on a collision course for war . You are informing him . If he chooses to listen or not is his business, Its Ukraine's choice. they chose war . The Russians had no option .
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
DUDE! Its under the Russian federation now. Its not contested , because Ukraine cant even get there to contest it
both sides are claiming it as their own. Ukraine can fight for it if it wants . I understand your point, but Thats the way Russians are going to play it.
spat
.950 JDJ
Russia signed an agreement to respect the *1994* ukranian borders.
Then then proceeded to invade several parts of that.
*then* Ukraine says "well, if they're going to try absorbing us peacemeal, we better get with NATO for some help" and Russia tries to use *that* as justification to take another bite ?
Why do you suppose that historically neutral countries like Sweden and Finland suddenly expressed an interest in NATO ? Were they afraid that Russia was going to claim a boy scout jamboree too close to the border was a staging ground for an invasion and attack *them* too ?