Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)

[SonOfSun]

The mayor of Kyiv, Vitaly Klitschko, has declared an emergency for the Ukrainian capital effective midnight local time.

That's the heavywwight boxer as the mayor.

 

[holdover]

Things are looking very bad in Ukraine right now. Its difficult to assess real from fake, what is confirmed and what isnt. Hearing a lot of bad things but all unconfirmed at this point.

 

[Blimey]

So, nearly the same as the US by your standards?

I thought you wanted a serious answer.

 

[Steal2B]

But I hear shes really really good at it.

Doubt she is good at it but she is probably fast and cheap.

 

[Blimey]

George Galloway
@georgegalloway

When the people of eastern #Ukraine were being relentlessly bombarded by the Ukrainian military over the last 8 years - killing 14,000 - they were “Russian separatists” in a “breakaway region”. Suddenly they’ve become “Ukrainians” who’ve been captured by #RussiaUkraineCrisis

They were but if you look at a map of those who call Russian their first language in parts of those regions it’s majority Russian.

As you go west it becomes much less so, with single digit percentages on the west side of the country.

If Russia pushes across all of Ukraine it will squash their army quickly but be a bitterly disliked occupying force the further west they go. Young, naive Russian soldiers will face the brunt of an indefinite guerrilla resistance.

The USA has been pushing for nord stream 2 to be killed, but Germany resisted mightily. This week it has finally capitulated. Gazprom stock has tanked and the project now shelved indefinitely, after billions spent (half by European financiers and half by Russia). NATO is more important now than any time since the Cold War, and the west will punish Russia’s economy severely over this.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I really don't see this ending well.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Ukraine Expands Civilian Gun Rights to Fight Russia

The Ukrainian parliament, known as the Verkhovna Rada, on Wednesday passed a bill greatly expanding civilian access to firearms.

www.breitbart.com

My favorite line - "Reliable data is hard to come by, but estimates place the rate of firearm ownership in Ukraine at somewhere between 6 and 13 guns per 100 citizens. In the United States, the ratio is close to 120 guns per 100 persons, meaning America has “more guns than people,” "

 

[holdover]

Putin listed the four steps needed to be taken by the Ukraine to avoid a direct, unilateral, Russian action:

• The Ukraine must recognize Crimea and Sevastopol as Russian territory
• The Ukraine must officially renounce joining NATO
• The Ukraine must negotiate a settlement with the LDNR Republics
• The Ukraine must be demilitarized and declared neutral

Not good. They're going to war.

 

[Blimey]

Ukraine Expands Civilian Gun Rights to Fight Russia

The Ukrainian parliament, known as the Verkhovna Rada, on Wednesday passed a bill greatly expanding civilian access to firearms.

www.breitbart.com

My favorite line - "Reliable data is hard to come by, but estimates place the rate of firearm ownership in Ukraine at somewhere between 6 and 13 guns per 100 citizens. In the United States, the ratio is close to 120 guns per 100 persons, meaning America has “more guns than people,” "

They waited until the last minute, didn’t they? You can’t get much of a militia formed the morning of.

 

[Blimey]

Putin listed the four steps needed to be taken by the Ukraine to avoid a direct, unilateral, Russian action:

• The Ukraine must recognize Crimea and Sevastopol as Russian territory
• The Ukraine must officially renounce joining NATO
• The Ukraine must negotiate a settlement with the LDNR Republics
• The Ukraine must be demilitarized and declared neutral

Not good. They're going to war.

It’s a bunch of silliness he knows they will never agree to. The last one in particular is just a joke.

 

[Dr. Evil]

So Brandon is concerned about securing the borders of the Ukraine. Just wanted to put things in perspective for those in the cheap seats.

 

[holdover]

It’s a bunch of silliness he knows they will never agree to. The last one in particular is just a joke.

Yup. Thats why I said they are going to war. Unacceptable terms for Ukraine

 

[holdover]

Marco Rubio
@marcorubio

The #Russian invasion of #Ukraine is now underway

9:06 PM · Feb 23, 2022·Twitter for iPad


In the hours to come #Russia will -conduct strikes on air defense systems -move to cut off #Kyiv from eastern #Ukraine -move to cut off Ukraine’s military forces on the line of contact in the east to prevent them from falling back to defend Kyiv



No source provided.

 

[FP1201]

“War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small ‘inside’ group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.”

- Smedley Butler

“I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

- Smedley Butler

“What business is it of ours whether Russia or Germany or England or France or Italy or Austria live under democracies or monarchies? Whether they are Fascists or Communists? Our problem is to preserve our own democracy. And very little, if anything, has been accomplished to assure us that the World War was really the war to end all wars.”

- Smedley Butler

“There are only two reasons why you should ever be asked to give your youngsters. One is defense of our homes. The other is the defense of our Bill of Rights and particularly the right to worship God as we see fit. Every other reason advanced for the murder of young men is a racket, pure and simple.”

- Smedley Butler

He had a bit more experience with war than most people on this forum and infinitely more than others, especially those stirring the pot to get into another war where young men and women don't fight for anything worthwhile.

Frankly, those advocating for war here have probably never been near one, participated in one, or even been in the service - more interested in the increase in their stock portfolios doing well.

Smedley Butler - Wikipedia

General Smedley Butler Quotes on War, Patriotism, and More – Veterans Today | Military Foreign Affairs Policy Journal for Clandestine Services

"At the time of his death in 1940 Major General Smedley Darlington Butler was the most decorated Marine in American history. His 16 medals included two Medals of Honor and the Brevet Medal, all for separate acts of heroism."

It's sad, but I would wager that you could walk into any High School or even College and announce that you would give a new Hundred Dollar Bill to anyone who knew (without looking him up) Butler was and of his heroism and there would be no takers.

 

[FP1201]

Marco Rubio
@marcorubio

The #Russian invasion of #Ukraine is now underway

9:06 PM · Feb 23, 2022·Twitter for iPad


In the hours to come #Russia will -conduct strikes on air defense systems -move to cut off #Kyiv from eastern #Ukraine -move to cut off Ukraine’s military forces on the line of contact in the east to prevent them from falling back to defend Kyiv

Honestly, I really don't know who's right and who's wrong in all this, and other than some bullshit NATO agreements, understand WHY WE have to stick our nose into it.
Perhaps someone can give me the Wiki on it, of given my age "Cliff Notes".

 

[FP1201]

It’s a bunch of silliness he knows they will never agree to. The last one in particular is just a joke.

You always ask for much more than you ever expect to get, then if they agree they think they got the better deal and you end up with extra shit.

 

[SonOfSun]

• The Ukraine must be demilitarized and declared neutral

Disarm and trust us.

That always ends well.

 

[Xae289]

“War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small ‘inside’ group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.”

- Smedley Butler

“I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

- Smedley Butler

“What business is it of ours whether Russia or Germany or England or France or Italy or Austria live under democracies or monarchies? Whether they are Fascists or Communists? Our problem is to preserve our own democracy. And very little, if anything, has been accomplished to assure us that the World War was really the war to end all wars.”

- Smedley Butler

“There are only two reasons why you should ever be asked to give your youngsters. One is defense of our homes. The other is the defense of our Bill of Rights and particularly the right to worship God as we see fit. Every other reason advanced for the murder of young men is a racket, pure and simple.”

- Smedley Butler

He had a bit more experience with war than most people on this forum and infinitely more than others, especially those stirring the pot to get into another war where young men and women don't fight for anything worthwhile.

Frankly, those advocating for war here have probably never been near one, participated in one, or even been in the service - more interested in the increase in their stock portfolios doing well.

Smedley Butler - Wikipedia

General Smedley Butler Quotes on War, Patriotism, and More – Veterans Today | Military Foreign Affairs Policy Journal for Clandestine Services

"At the time of his death in 1940 Major General Smedley Darlington Butler was the most decorated Marine in American history. His 16 medals included two Medals of Honor and the Brevet Medal, all for separate acts of heroism."

I was aware of Smedley Butler before I enlisted because the Corps is very proud of his two Medals of Honor, but it was only soon after boot camp that I really did much reading on him. It was horrible. You just finish training and are so gung-ho and motivated, then you read about one of the most esteemed Marine Corps heroes telling you the truth and calling out the horrible history of war as a racket. It was hard to digest, but the longer I was in, the more I took it to heart with my eyes open to what was going on around me. It always sure looked like what General Butler described.

One thing that's encouraging here is to see patriots and veterans not just going with the jingoistic narrative but maintaining a healthy skepticism.

 

[BerettaGuy]

The time has come to talk nukes.
The world has been at war since the first tribe was formed.
WWI was a continuation of tribal warfare and WWII up to Iraq and Afganastan were born out of the League of Nations.
So I guess you could say WWI is still going on.

The only reason we have had a lull is because of American and NATO ICBMs.

Now, not so much.
Just as the deaths and destruction of WWII surpassed WWI the next one will make them both look like child play.
The only bright side is if CNN doesn't report on it, did it really happen.

 

[holdover]

Honestly, I really don't know who's right and who's wrong in all this, and other than some bullshit NATO agreements, understand WHY WE have to stick our nose into it.
Perhaps someone can give me the Wiki on it, of given my age "Cliff Notes".

We and NATO are not directly involved in any conflict . The condensed version (depending on who you ask) is that NATO had placed weapons in Ukraine that threated the Russians . The Russians asked that they be removed for national security purposes. Ukraine then it wanted to join NATO. which would a direct threat to Russia . they were told to go fuck thier mother. Russia said if you dont take the weapons out we will , Ukraine told them to go fuck thier mother.

As it stands at the moment there are two russian break away republics which have been in conflict with russia since 2014 . they are mainly Russian People on Ukrainian soil. right now Russia has moved military forces into these regions and now recognize them as independent states with no resistance.

The UN and NATO, said no fucking way , this is still Ukraine. As of now there has been some sporadic fighting between the separatists and Ukrainian forces . Russia has been pouring forces into the two regions now considered ""separate republics ""by Russia.

As of right now Russia is on the verge of a full scale invasion of rest of Ukraine. It looks like it almost starting, but no one can be sure because the reporting is not always accurate.

The US and NATO will not be directly in combat with Russia at the moment but has said it will sends arms supplies assets to help.

It appears Ukraine is on the verge of a major conflict.

 

[holdover]

Disarm and trust us.

That always ends well.

Yeah thats gonna work. He basically gave them no choice on purpose. I think he intends to punish them .

 

[Mosinitis]

Holdover,
Post#290, second paragraph, first sentence.
You might want to fix that.

 

[Steal2B]

Ukraine was the third largest nuclear military power and agreed to de-nuclearize with the 1994 Budpest agreement where the United States, Great Britan, and Russia agreed to guarantee Ukraine's security. In 2014 this agreement proved it was worthless when Obama watched Russia seize Crimea.

Looks like Ukraine again has learned that they may have been better off keeping their nuclear arms.

This sends another strong message to North Korea and Iran to ignore diplomacy and nuke up.

FUJB, who enabled this fiasco by screwing up our energy sector, bumbling in Afghanistan and enabling Putin with new found riches and power. It really looks like the Biden administration worked in concert to enable Putin to expand and it is a safe bet Xi is on deck.

 

[Mosinitis]

Ukraine was the third largest nuclear military power and agreed to de-nuclearize with the 1994 Budpest agreement where the United States, Great Britan, and Russia agreed to guarantee Ukraine's security. In 2014 this agreement proved it was worthless when Obama watched Russia seize Crimea.

Looks like Ukraine again has learned that they may have been better off keeping their nuclear arms.

This sends another strong message to North Korea and Iran to ignore diplomacy and nuke up.

FUJB, who enabled this fiasco by screwing up our energy sector and enabling Putin with new found riches and power. It really looks like the Biden administration worked in concert to enable Putin to expand and Xi is on deck.

Bullshit,
This agreement was violated when U.S. government participated in a violent coup to overthrow democratically elected president of Ukraine, violating Ukraine's political sovereignty, which was a part of this agreement.

 

[Steal2B]

Bullshit,
This agreement was violated when U.S. government participated in a violent coup to overthrow democratically elected president of Ukraine, violating Ukraine's political sovereignty, which was a part of this agreement.

Nope. Putin's claims of the scope of US participation of the 2014 coup is bullshit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/23/fact-checking-putins-speech-ukraine/

 

[Blimey]

Ukraine was the third largest nuclear military power and agreed to de-nuclearize with the 1994 Budpest agreement where the United States, Great Britan, and Russia agreed to guarantee Ukraine's security. In 2014 this agreement proved it was worthless when Obama watched Russia seize Crimea.

Looks like Ukraine again has learned that they may have been better off keeping their nuclear arms.

This sends another strong message to North Korea and Iran to ignore diplomacy and nuke up.

FUJB, who enabled this fiasco by screwing up our energy sector, bumbling in Afghanistan and enabling Putin with new found riches and power. It really looks like the Biden administration worked in concert to enable Putin to expand and it is a safe bet Xi is on deck.

Ukraine had moved toward joining nato in the 90’s. It was shelved when their Russian puppet president was booted out (and ran home) in 2014. Prior to Russia’s invasion of Crimea support for nato by Ukrainians wasn’t high. After that invasion it was high— but they ran out of time to get it done. Putin knew it wouldn’t be long before they did.

 

[Blimey]

Bullshit,
This agreement was violated when U.S. government participated in a violent coup to overthrow democratically elected president of Ukraine, violating Ukraine's political sovereignty, which was a part of this agreement.

He was a Russian puppet who the people rose up against and kicked out on his ass. People like him end up hanging from a rope after a time—once enough people have had enough. He slinked off before they could get him.

 

[Mosinitis]

Nope. Putin's claims of the scope of US participation of the 2014 coup is bullshit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/23/fact-checking-putins-speech-ukraine/

Not only U.S. government was involved in overthrowing Ukrainian president. It was handpicking a new government. It's recorded on tape.

 

[Mosinitis]

He was a Russian puppet who the people rose up against and kicked out on his ass. People like him end up hanging from a rope after a time—once enough people have had enough. He slinked off before they could get him.

He was democraticaly elected and could have been voted out in the upcoming election. U.S. government created this mess and blames Putin.

 

[GOPerfect]

I thought you wanted a serious answer.

I did, your answer was thought out and solid.

You description mirrors much of the US as well.

We all have serious issues.