spat
.950 JDJ
Russia doesn't get to decide who is allowed to join NATO.
They may think they own eastern Europe, but they don't.
They going to invade Sweden and Finland now, because they are joining ?
Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)
- Thread starter holdover
- Start date
They may think they own eastern Europe, but they don't.
They going to invade Sweden and Finland now, because they are joining ?
Russia will not allow saber rattling on their border. We wouldn't, neither will they. That doesn't make Putin an evil dictator, it makes him a patriot. All other important Russian politicians are of the same mind. Russian opposition the West is counting on is a joke. Russia learned its painful lesson about good will from the West during 1990's. Ukraine never did. It's nice of us to applaud Ukrainian self-destruction, wave their flag and chant "Slava Ukraina", while turning their country into a meat grinder. At some point Ukrainian people will figure out how they are being exploited by outsiders.
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spat
.950 JDJ
So, you're saying Poland would be justified in invading the Donbas now to keep Russia off their border ?
Poland doesn't have a border with Donbas.
spat
.950 JDJ
Right, but Russia isn't planning on stopping their invasion until they *are* on the polish border.
So, that means Poland is justified in driving them all the way back to the original border, right ?
If NATO membership is enough of a justification for Russia to invade, then certainly an actual occupation by Russian forces is enough justification for NATO to invade, right ?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Thats up to Poland to decide for themselves. If they felt threatened, then Yes, Its a legitimate cause.
I cant believe you think Russia is going to take on NATO.
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spat
.950 JDJ
How could Poland *not* feel threatened ?
They've seen episode 1, aren't keen on staring in episode 2.
You just admitted that this is a legitimate threat to NATO. Apparently Russia isn't worried about threatening NATO.
Maybe Russia has seen the NATO response thus far and is unimpressed. Their nuclear arsenal has proven to cause NATO to roll over and let them do what they want.
How many times has NATO said "no, you can't just invade your neighbors ? Oh, we won't actually *do* anything about it, but you can expect a *very* strongly worded letter".
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
is NATO doing anything with the USA Southern Boarder ... just asking ..
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
No, I dont believe they are, but I can understand your point, and Polish concerns haveing Russia on thier border.
Poland Has to ascertain the threat based on what they see. That doesnt give Russia a legitimate reason to attack Poland, but it can give Poland a legitmate reason to attack Russia, (which they wont )At least not at this point.
spat
.950 JDJ
I see it differently.
Whoever crosses the border first is the invader.
If Ukraine had crossed into Russia pre-emptively in January, then they would be the bad guys and deserve everything they're getting, but they didn't.
Posturing for an invasion is saber rattling and is a time honored diplomatic strategy.
Actually putting troops on someone else's soil is an act of war.
The reason is that both sides in a conflict can dig in and fortify their side of the border forever and no actual hostilities will result.
But putting troops on someone's soil uninvited is quite literally crossing the line.
"Crossing the Rubicon" is a well known idiom for a reason.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Every situation is different, there are a lot of grey areas Like the history of the countries involved, who owned what, who stole what when, whos dick is bigger, the land itself , control of ports or rivers or commodities, Each side thinks they are right, and We need to stay unbiased like a jury , listen to both stories. As you know the western media pushes whatever agenda they are told to , they are completely biased in every respect to foreign policy as a whole. I look at the chess board from both sides,
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Well in this case they do. If joining NATO is a legitimate threat to Russia , and they warned them time after time that it was a red line, Then I dont see any problem with it . The Ukraine was fully aware of the threat. It built a large army and fortifications to prepare for an invasion . Ukraine and the west knew this war was comming. This was no surprise attack By Russia. This was open Russian policy.
Placeing missles in cuba was a red line that the US could not tolerate, the Russians did it anyway, the US was prepared to go to war with cuba and russia over it. the justification was a threat to the US homeland. We had no legal rights to demand shit . But we had the legitimate argument of a national security threat to the US and the US was going to act on it . If China tried that today in Canada or Mexico it would be no different. Legal or not legal it is a threat that must be addressed.
This makes sense from the Russian position as well as the US position back in 61.
Are you forgetting that Biden carved a nice loophole for people in the US to continue business deals with Russia?
Well, to be honest, I wouldn't want NATO anywhere near the US. I have zero use for them and we make up 95% of NATO's might. So if we can't do it, that means NATO can't either.
prambo
.475 A&M Magnum
Didn't know that...but "it computes", given his son's "business" dealings.
spat
.950 JDJ
So, if NATO had warned over and over that an invasion of Ukraine was a red line, they would be perfectly justified in sending in some F35s and destroying anything Russian in Ukraine larger than a bicycle ?
What if their red line was "Russian forces remaining in Ukraine after Sept 1st" ?
spat
.950 JDJ
We should absolutely not "remain unbiased".
This is not 2 rugby teams trying to score points.
This is international geopolitics.
We have only one side to consider, the US side, and we should do whatever is best for the US in the long term.
What we *should* have done, is back in December, or January, arranged a large training exercise with our ally the Ukraine.
Sent 20 or 40 thousand guys to play around with the Ukrainians in the mud down in the Donbas.
Fly a few squadrons of fighters over their heads too for realism.
That would have shut this whole shit show down.
Putin would have had a conniption fit, but he would have done it in Moscow, and none of his guys would have left Russian soil.
Unless our real goal was to destroy Russia, in that case, we played things very well. Personally I think Russia would have been better as an ally against the globalist.
But, since we put globalists in charge here, I guess Russia had to die.
Air Force Open to Sending A-10s to Ukraine for Fight Against Russia
Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said that some of America's aging A-10 Thunderbolt combat jets could potentially be given to Ukraine.
I don't understand how helping to keep corruption wheel turning would help the USA. That action would help the fUSA.
spat
.950 JDJ
Every government is corrupt.
Putin used to be useful, but once he started trying to conquer Europe he crossed the line from useful to dangerous.
Taking over Ukraine does not equal taking over Europe.
spat
.950 JDJ
It equals an attempt when you consider that it's just the next stepping stone after Chechnya and Georgia.
How many of his neighbors *does* he have to invade before it is "trying to take over europe" ?
Any farther than Ukraine and Belarus. That's is my thought anyway.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Possible. Had they warned Russia that an invasion of Ukraine would result in NATO going to war with Russia, Russia may not have attacked.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I totally disagree. What matters is not whats best for the US. What matters is right and wrong. the truth matters. Im not going to jump on the band wagon with a bunch of global elites and cheer the flag. I want my country to do the right thing . I want my country to be honest. I want my country to be a piller of leadership and freedom again.
BlackRock Head Admits: “Our New World Order Has Failed”
BlackRock CEO and Chairman Larry Fink has admitted that the elites have failed to usher in a 'New World Order' following President Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
newspunch.com
spat
.950 JDJ
There are no good guys. There never have been and there never will be. Global geopolitics is a prison yard, not a country club. Everyone in there has done very bad stuff, and they will again given the slightest opportunity.
The only messure "right" or "wrong" that exists is "leave the agreed borders of your sovereign neighbors alone". There is only one party who has violated that here, and they cannot be allowed to continue.
The US is as benevolent a superpower as there ever has been, and I think that's a very good thing. I think you maximize prosperity in the long term when you maximize freedom.
A totalitarian approach can produce short term gains in prosperity, but long term, freedom wins for everyone.
But that doesn't mean I'm interested in "fair". "Fair" would be giving China a more than equal say in how the world works. I don't think that's in anyone's best interest long term. Not even the Chinese people.
That's where I disagree with you. Putin has no desire or possibility of taking over Europe. His aggressive actions are defensive in nature if you can believe that. He'll go no further than Poland and the Baltics militarily. But he'll definitely use Russian oil, natural gas and wheat to "persuade" (i.e. blackmail) the rest of Europe to see things his way. Russia can't take over Europe because they don't have the manpower to do it, let alone rule it. Russia is literally a dying country. There is no way they can take over Europe.
spat
.950 JDJ
I agree he won't take over Europe. NATO may be going by the Neville chamberlain playback, but eventually they'll stop. I think an attack on Poland would be a real wake up call and would bring the hellfire we should have brought after Geogia.
Putin can whine about "defensive invasions" all he wants, but that's about as convincing as pregnant men.
Defense is much easier than invasion. If you are in a position to invade your neighbor then they were not in a position to invade you. It takes several times as many troops to invade as it does to defend.
There is a reason they fought the battle of Britain and didn't just go straight to D-Day LOL.
Russia's aggression in the 21st century was a pure land grab. It was plainly an attempt to return Russia to it's former Soviet glory.
They went into Ukraine because they thought they could. They thought they could because we let them take the other 2 first.
If Ukraine had been the cake walk everyone expected back in February, Russia would be picking another target in only a few years.