Ukraine - Russia Conflict (Original Title: Things are heating up in the Donbass)

[Mosinitis]

I'm not sure that this is a complete assessment with regards to "western stupidity."

From an American warfighter's stanpoint in the Pentagon, we now have the opportunity to seriously degrade the military capacity of one of our sworn global enemies. We can do so by sending equipment (much of which is older and being mothballed or relegated to training) to Ukraine, to be used without American personnel, and then request appropriations to replace the "donated" material with modern versions. From the Pentagon's viewpoint, this is as close to a win-win situation as can be.

Our military planners are absolutely fighting a proxy war against Russia. But, Russia has no proxy and has real skin in the game. Our government, and possibly Zelensky, are willing to fight to the last Ukranian.

In the end, the Ukrainian people are being murdered by Russia and are being continuously fed into the proverbial grinder by their allies.

"Warfighters in Pentagon" will always have a sworn enemy to "DEFEND OUR FREEDOM" from. Milosevich was trying to take away our freedom, Saddam was trying to take away our freedom, Ho Chi Minh was trying to take away our freedom and so did Kim's of North Korea. "Warfighters in Pentagon" will always push that argument, no matter how delusional it may be. Russia has been trying to be our friend for a few decades, but we need them only as an enemy. They got the message.

Nazi Germany wanted to control only Europe. United States wants to control the world. Both are willing to sacrifice millions of lives. U.S. just has better and more sophisticated PR. Hitler was too honest about it.

 

[Steal2B]

Biden promises to send Cuba and Venezuela new U.S. weapons if they send their older obsolete weapons to Ukraine.


According to 4 Star General Laura Richardson, Biden has asked Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and six other Latin American nations to send their old Russian weapons to Ukraine in exchange for new U.S. military equipment.

The US has asked Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and six other Latin American nations to send their old Russian weapons to Ukraine in exchange for U.S. equipment.
US SOUTHCOM Commander General Laura Richardson discussed the request in a recent interview.pic.twitter.com/7AW2lPrrr1
— MintPress News (@MintPressNews) January 23, 2023

CITIZEN FREE PRESS

The Greatest News Site On The Internet. Home of CFP Nation.

citizenfreepress.com

 

[Phazer]

"Warfighters in Pentagon" will always have a sworn enemy to "DEFEND OUR FREEDOM" from. Milosevich was trying to take away our freedom, Saddam was trying to take away our freedom, Ho Chi Minh was trying to take away our freedom and so did Kim's of North Korea. "Warfighters in Pentagon" will always push that argument, no matter how delusional it may be. Russia has been trying to be our friend for a few decades, but we need them only as an enemy. They got the message.

I can't completely disagree.

We were warned about the military industrial complex.

 

[spat]

I'm not sure that this is a complete assessment with regards to "western stupidity."

From an American warfighter's stanpoint in the Pentagon, we now have the opportunity to seriously degrade the military capacity of one of our sworn global enemies. We can do so by sending equipment (much of which is older and being mothballed or relegated to training) to Ukraine, to be used without American personnel, and then request appropriations to replace the "donated" material with modern versions. From the Pentagon's viewpoint, this is as close to a win-win situation as can be.

Our military planners are absolutely fighting a proxy war against Russia. But, Russia has no proxy and has real skin in the game. Our government, and possibly Zelensky, are willing to fight to the last Ukranian.

In the end, the Ukrainian people are being murdered by Russia and are being continuously fed into the proverbial grinder by their allies.

All of what you say is correct.

But, that is *why* the US doesn't want Ukraine to achieve a swift victory.

If they sent Ukraine the resources they need to really spank the Russians hard, then they might go home before they're completely destroyed.

The US military planners are employing a rope-a-dope strategy, letting Russia keep thinking they want to escalate rather than withdraw.

They will continue to provide just enough aid to keep Russia from winning, but not enough for Ukraine to win either.

They do not want this yo end quickly.

 

[Vapor]

I think if anything, this war proves mothball and old stock

In a near peer or peer war a major power l lose a lit

That engine will run on basically any liquid that burns.

It will run quite happily on gasoline or regular diesel.

Ding, ding ding.....


They do not need to know how to maintain them. They do not need to know how to service them.

The US will be sending Military personnel with these tanks to ensure they are operating to full capacity.

The Left wants and all out war. The WEF wants and all out war.

Anyone that thinks this is a good idea, is absolutely clueless to what this means. Clueless.

If anything they should be trying to secure more Soviet/eastern tanks for then. Logistics wide different western tanks make it a nightmare. It would be better to buy T72s, T90s (India has more than Russia), he'll even older Soviet designs that the Ukrainians already know, have ammo, and spare parts for.

 

[livingston]

'Germany at war with Russia': Explosive admission by Minister after NATO plays defensive​

 

[DoOver]

 

[tirwin1]

Biden promises to send Cuba and Venezuela new U.S. weapons if they send their older obsolete weapons to Ukraine.


According to 4 Star General Laura Richardson, Biden has asked Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and six other Latin American nations to send their old Russian weapons to Ukraine in exchange for new U.S. military equipment.

CITIZEN FREE PRESS

The Greatest News Site On The Internet. Home of CFP Nation.

citizenfreepress.com

And this is how the conflict widens to become another world war. Seriously, who comes up with these ideas? Are they on drugs?

 

[GOPerfect]

Russia's inexplicable failure to assert air superiority bothers me a lot and I've not seen a plausible explanation, just guesses. It makes me wonder if they are not just playing a part. They were on the cusp of that early on but pulled their punches...why? That's strategy 101. Like WWE wrestlers, this may all be choreographed to serve the goals of the WEF.

It's hard for me to believe that Russia is this inept and we have over-estimated their capabilities so grossly. If that's the case you have to wonder about our Military Intelligence.

It needed to become a protracted war to suck in other nations directly or indirectly. The destabilizing global consequences have fed WEF agenda goals. Almost every topic covered at Davos should have been a sub-topic to this conflict, but where are the attempts to broker for peace? The one attempt at that I recall was coming from the African Union. Instead, everyone jumped in Russia's shit and sent aid to Ukraine. Pretty obvious they aren't interested in peace.

So, I agree the WEF is pulling strings but how much, if any of it is also Russia's? Maybe it's just that I have lived too long under the Cold War to see Russia as a 'white hat'. Hell, when I served it was the whole USSR that was the threat...and that includes Ukraine.

I always try to remember that Tsar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm II and King George V were all cousins and yet put their countries at war during WWI. How much of what happens is just 'family' business while they use us to kill each other. If nothing else it keeps us from turning on them.

I may be giving Russia too much credit, but...

I believe they have known all along how much NATO was going to get involved. Maybe not to the extent that we are seeing, but they knew.

I am thinking that maybe they have not used all of their airpower yet due to knowing the West was going to be sending lots of vehicles. Waiting for as much equipment to get into place, easy to destroy many at a time instead of hunting down the few.

All of these extra vehicles and armor that is being given to the Ukraines is going to give them all a false sense of hugeness. I think Russia is going to take advantage of this and I think in the upcoming weeks, we are going to see a lot more of their aircraft flying and destroying.

 

[GOPerfect]

Very interesting, you make some great points. Kind of reminds me of the Battle of Stirling Bridge, to use a more historic example...the real one not the movie version.

If NATO involvement was a forgone conclusion that makes sense. Maybe there's been too much expectation that this would have played out like Crimea. However, if it were that decisive, any direct NATO involvement would have appeared retaliatory, especially Ukraine not being a NATO member...so now I'm back to second guessing why they didn't drop the hammer. The fallout with NATO and much of the rest of the world would have been diplomatic and not so militaristic.

If it plays out as you suggest then yeah, I'd say there's the proof Russia is treating this as an existential threat.

I love the stories of the fighting that was done by our Ancestors. Real and true fighting

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

 

[Defilade]

 

[Mosinitis]

 

[Vapor]

Russia's inexplicable failure to assert air superiority bothers me a lot and I've not seen a plausible explanation, just guesses. It makes me wonder if they are not just playing a part. They were on the cusp of that early on but pulled their punches...why? That's strategy 101. Like WWE wrestlers, this may all be choreographed to serve the goals of the WEF.

It's hard for me to believe that Russia is this inept and we have over-estimated their capabilities so grossly. If that's the case you have to wonder about our Military Intelligence.

It needed to become a protracted war to suck in other nations directly or indirectly. The destabilizing global consequences have fed WEF agenda goals. Almost every topic covered at Davos should have been a sub-topic to this conflict, but where are the attempts to broker for peace? The one attempt at that I recall was coming from the African Union. Instead, everyone jumped in Russia's shit and sent aid to Ukraine. Pretty obvious they aren't interested in peace.

So, I agree the WEF is pulling strings but how much, if any of it is also Russia's? Maybe it's just that I have lived too long under the Cold War to see Russia as a 'white hat'. Hell, when I served it was the whole USSR that was the threat...and that includes Ukraine.

I always try to remember that Tsar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm II and King George V were all cousins and yet put their countries at war during WWI. How much of what happens is just 'family' business while they use us to kill each other. If nothing else it keeps us from turning on them.

 

[spat]

Russia's inexplicable failure to assert air superiority bothers me a lot and I've not seen a plausible explanation, just guesses. It makes me wonder if they are not just playing a part. They were on the cusp of that early on but pulled their punches...why? That's strategy 101. Like WWE wrestlers, this may all be choreographed to serve the goals of the WEF.

It's hard for me to believe that Russia is this inept and we have over-estimated their capabilities so grossly. If that's the case you have to wonder about our Military Intelligence.

It needed to become a protracted war to suck in other nations directly or indirectly. The destabilizing global consequences have fed WEF agenda goals. Almost every topic covered at Davos should have been a sub-topic to this conflict, but where are the attempts to broker for peace? The one attempt at that I recall was coming from the African Union. Instead, everyone jumped in Russia's shit and sent aid to Ukraine. Pretty obvious they aren't interested in peace.

So, I agree the WEF is pulling strings but how much, if any of it is also Russia's? Maybe it's just that I have lived too long under the Cold War to see Russia as a 'white hat'. Hell, when I served it was the whole USSR that was the threat...and that includes Ukraine.

I always try to remember that Tsar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm II and King George V were all cousins and yet put their countries at war during WWI. How much of what happens is just 'family' business while they use us to kill each other. If nothing else it keeps us from turning on them.

They were over estimated because everyone involved in the process has a vested interest in having the strongest possible boogeyman.

US intelligence and defense at every level benefits from the perception that our enemies are as strong as possible.

*none* of them were ever going to say "nah, the Ruskies are a pushover, we don't need to worry" when their budget is directly tied to monitoring and countering them.

 

[livingston]

This Deadly German Super Tank SHOCKED The Russians​

 

[GOPerfect]

The newest Propaganda Poster from the losers....

 

[holdover]

Russia's inexplicable failure to assert air superiority bothers me a lot and I've not seen a plausible explanation, just guesses. It makes me wonder if they are not just playing a part. They were on the cusp of that early on but pulled their punches...why? That's strategy 101. Like WWE wrestlers, this may all be choreographed to serve the goals of the WEF.

It's hard for me to believe that Russia is this inept and we have over-estimated their capabilities so grossly. If that's the case you have to wonder about our Military Intelligence.

It needed to become a protracted war to suck in other nations directly or indirectly. The destabilizing global consequences have fed WEF agenda goals. Almost every topic covered at Davos should have been a sub-topic to this conflict, but where are the attempts to broker for peace? The one attempt at that I recall was coming from the African Union. Instead, everyone jumped in Russia's shit and sent aid to Ukraine. Pretty obvious they aren't interested in peace.

So, I agree the WEF is pulling strings but how much, if any of it is also Russia's? Maybe it's just that I have lived too long under the Cold War to see Russia as a 'white hat'. Hell, when I served it was the whole USSR that was the threat...and that includes Ukraine.

I always try to remember that Tsar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm II and King George V were all cousins and yet put their countries at war during WWI. How much of what happens is just 'family' business while they use us to kill each other. If nothing else it keeps us from turning on them.

I have to say, Ive considered this a possibility from the get go. I dont know if its true or not

 

[holdover]

Russia's inexplicable failure to assert air superiority bothers me a lot and I've not seen a plausible explanation, just guesses. It makes me wonder if they are not just playing a part. They were on the cusp of that early on but pulled their punches...why? That's strategy 101. Like WWE wrestlers, this may all be choreographed to serve the goals of the WEF.

Its possible.

My thoughts on the lack of air power is that once the Ukrainian air threat was neutralized they needed to conserve every aircraft they had in the case of NATO jumping in and not having enough aircraft. Plus the Russian air defense is pretty dam good and Ukraine had plenty of it .

The Russian airforce has been a lot more active on the front lines after having degraded their air defense , Like today there was huge missile attack on Ukraine. Which you can loosely call a reconnaissance by force . they will know where the air defenses are How many missiles they fired. where they are not . and of course making them use up a lot of missiles on missiles and not planes. judging by their past actions You may see some sort of attack take place tomorrow or the next day where they think they can get away with it Most likely an assault with drones and air support . while targeting any air defenses they can . The Ukis are running low on air defense missiles and the Russians are looking for a hole .

Ill take a shot and say they may try to close off Bakmut or maybe even assault it . they did use air support in Soladar and Bakmut just recently . I still think they are being conservative with the aircraft because of NATO. Although all those NATO tanks may get some special attention from the Russian air force.

 

[Mosinitis]

 

[holdover]

@GOPerfect had a similar take. Looking at this solely from a tactical position in a traditional war setting, I'd agree.

But if Russia was concerned about NATO and defying the globalists in order to preserve their sovereignty was their reason for the conflict (a more reasonable objective doesn't come to mind), then allowing it to become protracted has not worked to their favor. That just allowed time for NATO to strategize, stage and support. It also allowed the condemnation of the global community to grow far beyond rhetoric into punitive action. Sanctions were going to happen anyway, but they too have become protracted along with the conflict. Humanitarian aid for Ukraine is now military aid.

Some are calling this a US proxy war...that is incorrect...it is a NATO proxy war. The drums are beating.

If they had asserted air dominance, they could have provided better air support for ground forces and maybe drawn this to a conclusion. NATO would have just been left saber-rattling as they have in the past. On paper, they had the numbers and the tech. I know that doesn't always add up though.

If this really is just their strategy, it's come at great cost and with more to come.

I'm just spitballing possibilities and not sold on any one scenario. But choosing to exercise my 2A rights and the last few years have shown me that nothing is as it seems. Especially when it comes to the puppet .gov.

All reasonable, but the Ukraine does/did have some very good air defense and it would cost them . they have plenty of men ,

Were all just spit balling, the information is sporadic , exaggerated, hidden, and deceptive . both sides have to lie to protect themselves , so its real hard to get dead on accuracy.


I dont belive Russia wanted a protracted war either. they either fucked up or they were in on it . could be why the west isnt the least bit concerned about a nuclear war. There's some validity to that

 

[GOPerfect]

This little war is not gaining the support of the people like so many thought it would.

Many of the German people are rather up in arms over this. Support is lessening here in the states and in Poland among the people.

I foresee more and more, day by day losing interest and support for The Ukraine.

 

[Arjuna]

Pretend-O-Rama - Kunstler

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

This Deadly German Super Tank SHOCKED The Russians​

Does anyone else find the irony of likely battles in 2023 where you have a battle in Ukraine with German tank mounted mg42s likely facing some russian troops with mosin nagants.

 

[MothMan]

Pretend-O-Rama - Kunstler

"Ukraine is about out of its own soldiers and weapons."

"The tank proffer is, sad to say (for the dignity of our country), a joke, kind of a last feeble pretense before the whole thing ends in ignominy for the “Joe Biden” team — whoever that actually is. The repercussions are liable to be ugly for our country, not necessarily more military trouble in other lands (which we probably lack the capacity to engage in now), but something more personal: the collapse of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency and a vicious loss of purchasing power here at home. That would provoke a situation worse than the Great Depression of the 1930s, and that’s probably where things are going.

The Ukraine misadventure will disappear from America’s collective consciousness in a New York minute and a Fourth Turning jamboree of serious domestic political disorder will commence in short order. If you think “Joe Biden’s” term in office has been a disaster so far, just wait. You ain’t seen nuttin yet."

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

"Ukraine is about out of its own soldiers and weapons."

Yep Ukraine cannot sustain these losses indefinitely. They just can't. There are only so many military aged males fit for duty around.

I've heard of Ukraine authorities forcibly going around and grabbing older unfit Ukrainians at gun point out of their homes to conscript them. That's not a good indicator of where their army is.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Were all just spit balling, the information is sporadic , exaggerated, hidden, and deceptive . both sides have to lie to protect themselves , so its real hard to get dead on accuracy.

Oh, so you mean no one in this thread really knows what's going on over there...gotcha.

 

[tirwin1]

@GOPerfect had a similar take. Looking at this solely from a tactical position in a traditional war setting, I'd agree.

But if Russia was concerned about NATO and defying the globalists in order to preserve their sovereignty was their reason for the conflict (a more reasonable objective doesn't come to mind), then allowing it to become protracted has not worked to their favor. That just allowed time for NATO to strategize, stage and support. It also allowed the condemnation of the global community to grow far beyond rhetoric into punitive action. Sanctions were going to happen anyway, but they too have become protracted along with the conflict. Humanitarian aid for Ukraine is now military aid.

Some are calling this a US proxy war...that is incorrect...it is a NATO proxy war. The drums are beating.

If they had asserted air dominance, they could have provided better air support for ground forces and maybe drawn this to a conclusion. NATO would have just been left saber-rattling as they have in the past. On paper, they had the numbers and the tech. I know that doesn't always add up though.

If this really is just their strategy, it's come at great cost and with more to come.

I'm just spitballing possibilities and not sold on any one scenario. But choosing to exercise my 2A rights and the last few years have shown me that nothing is as it seems. Especially when it comes to the puppet .gov.

Simple defense based on geography and demographics is a reasonable objective. The geography between Berlin and Moscow is essentially flat and open which invited invaders and makes defense difficult. Russia is literally a dying nation (more deaths than births) and the number of military age men is going to decrease quickly in a decade. The Russians want smaller borders they can defend with the projected number of military aged men.

This action was predicted by at least one writer many years ago. The actions by the US to include Ukraine in NATO may have been the immediate cause but the move by the Russians was inevitable. The problem for NATO is they wouldn't stop at Ukraine and would advance halfway into Poland to achieve their defensible border objectives.

 

[Mosinitis]

Ukrainian crews may have been already trained on these tanks and they can appear sooner then people think. I am very suspicious of government officials, media and Pentagon going out of their way to say it's months or a year away. Makes it easier to cross another Russian red line.

Remember these:

NATO will not spread East.
Don't worry about Baltic states joining NATO, they are too small to be a threat.
We have no plans to accept Ukraine into NATO any time soon.
We will only supply defensive weapons.
We will not let Ukraine strike targets inside Russia.
........ and on and on and on.

 

[spat]

Ukrainian crews may have been already trained on these tanks and they can appear sooner then people think. I am very suspicious of government officials, media and Pentagon going out of their way to say it's months or a year away. Makes it easier to cross another Russian red line.

Remember these:

NATO will not spread East.
Don't worry about Baltic states joining NATO, they are too small to be a threat.
We have no plans to accept Ukraine into NATO any time soon.
We will only supply defensive weapons.
We will not let Ukraine strike targets inside Russia.
........ and on and on and on.

Nations do not have the right to tell other nations which alliances they will join.

Russia promised to respect the sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons. Turns out an agreement with Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I bet Ukraine really wishes they had those nukes now.

If, as you say, Russia is justified in invading Ukraine to prevent the expansion of NATO, then wouldn't that mean NATO is justified in invading to prevent the spread of Russia ?

Why shouldn't NATO give Putin the Desert Storm treatment ? Shock and Awe his ass all the way back to Moscow ?